Metamodern Christianity Part 2: Evolving Spirituality and the Sacred Universe

Can Metamodern Christianity breathe new life into ancient religious frameworks?

In this episode of "Voices with Vervaeke," John Vervaeke and Brendan Graham Dempsey continue their exploration of MetaModern Christianity in part two of their discussion. Building on their previous conversation, which addressed the potential for metamodern spirituality to rejuvenate the Christian faith, they delve deeper into the integration of ancient doctrines with contemporary thought. They tackle the limitations of traditional religious frameworks, explore the concept of ultimate reality and the sacred through a non-theistic lens, and emphasize the significance of dialogical relationships in meaning-making. Vervaeke and Dempsey connect these insights to broader philosophical and cultural themes, examining the evolution of spiritual maturity, the interplay between personhood and the universe, and the integration of scientific and mystical perspectives.

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00:00 Introduction and Recap of Part One
00:45 Brendan's Work on Metamodern Spirituality
02:45 Ultimate Reality and the Sacred
13:25 Integrating Critiques: Schellenberg, Transcendence, and Non-Theism
16:50 Meaning and Learning in Sacred Evolution
29:20 Dialogical Relationship with the Sacred
41:45 God as Cosmic Self-Realization
50:00 Prayer and Maturation in Deep Time
54:30 Prayer and Transpersonal Dialogue
58:30 Prayer and Ultimate Reality
01:15:05 Conclusion: The Evolution of Meaning and the Sacred

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Ideas, People, and Works Mentioned in this Episode

J.L. Schellenberg
Gregg Henriques
Rudolf Otto
Clifford Geertz
Carl Sagan
Meister Eckhart
Paul Tillich
Iain McGilchrist
Martin Heidegger
Michael Levin
Epicurus
Bobby Azarian
Kasra Mirzaie
Leonard Angel
Spinoza
John Hick
Dan Chiappe
Paul Tillich
Dionysus
Brendan Graham Dempsey , A Universal Learning Process (The Evolution of Meaning)
​​Matt Rossano, Ritual in Human Evolution and Religion
Joseph A. Bracken, The Divine Matrix: Creativity As Link Between East and West
Leonard Angel, Enlightenment East and West

Relevant Episodes

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Thank you for watching!

[Gotchaaaaaa]

After all the unrest in the UK these past couple of weeks this is a breath of fresh air. Thankyou for all your work John, and Brendan, for the wonderful conversation.

[RobinTurner]

I find it very encouraging that so much fresh thinking about the sacred is coming from Christians to an extent that I don't think we've seen since the days of Tillich and de Chardin. I made a sincere attempt at giving Christianity a go when I was ten, but soon abandoned it for Buddhism, which led me to investigate Daoism, Hindu Tantra and eventually Sufism, so I was fascinated to find some of the ideas I discovered there coming back at me from cutting-edge Christians like Brendan, Elizabeth Oldfield and Jonathan Pageaut - and also, early Christians like Pseudo- Dionysius and Pseudo-Denys (who I can't resist calling Denys the Menys). For example, I was completely unaware until now that the idea of divine names, which I knew from Sufism, was prefigured by Pseudo-Dionysius.

Anyway, thank you, Brendan, for some profound ınsıghts, and as usual, thank you, John, for continuing to bring together some of the most interesting minds of our times. A Universal Learning Process is now sitting in my Kindle jostling for my attention with all the other samples I've downloaded on John's recommendation!

[jmalfatto]

Great conversation. Re: Schellenberg, I read him before I read Whitehead for whom God is transcendent but not ultimate—more akin, I'd say, to Plato's Demiurge or to Plotinus's World Soul. Not that Whitehead is the last word, of course, but perhaps his account speaks to Brendan's hesitancy re: the sacred as ultimacy.

[traviswadezinn]

Very engaging discussion, at university the most compelling topics to me in philosophy and religion were the problem of evil and identity across time - we're finally getting around to collectively engaging them, although Neoplatonism, Hermeticism and Kabbalah pointed in a helpful direction long before, in the West. Thanks for the dialogue.

[iankclark]

John and Brendan: hold on to the asterisk!
God: *%#* 🫠

[MarcosBetancort]

These are my points of preliminary critique of the critique made to the view of a personal Christian God:

1. We have got what ultimate reality is, not true.
- Response: from our standpoint we are not meant to get what ultimate reality is, we only are responsible to live in light of what this ultimate reality has revealed of itself to us. This accords with Christian understanding.

2. Personal relationship of God with us is undermined by the spiritual ambiguity of the universe. As to the practice of virtue Christianity is not an exception. We lack maturity.
- Response: The issue of maturation then is not dealt with not by being open minded and not taking propositional knowledge seriously. Rather, it is about living in light of the truth that set us free revealed by Christ, not other practices or ideas about a personal God.

4. For maturity we must prioritize it over propositional knowledge of ultimate reality. In biblical traditional Christianity experiential knowledge is more important than propositional, yet the propositional is fundamental as a basic requirement for experiential knowledge even when this transcends it, and regulatory. Christianity doesnt deny that others can become moral and do good, it claims none of that good is enough to claim righteousness or holiness as that which only through Christ and His Spirit can be wrought in us. Once we realise through internal conversion by Christ’s Spirit that we are to live to this personal God and not to ourselves, we cut the root of all sin, this is the thread that will be perfected only in the future glory. This undermine other religions.

5. Epicurus’s problem of evil. This has been answered long ago, using the free will argument but also and more effectively as a providential rule; God has a good overall purpose for the existence of that which he most hate, implying here that it has to be an aspect of reality for its full display and make sense of the good. Done without the violation of what has been called ‘free will’ if we understand it properly. It doesnt seem irreconcilable if we take into account the historical answers to this problem, especially in an Augustinian reformed theology, but it can even be traced to Greek philosophical ideas as well.

A non-theistic God since it lacks relationship, and yet we are naturally relational, doesn't seem to be a plausible reality. This is in fact reflected in history, religions that lack a personal God, tend to be tribal, more individualistic, disregard the body and other peoples, unlike a personal God in principle, in an neo platonic classical theology understanding, which breaches between anthropomorphic literal view and an impersonal or non personal view as illusory, temporal or non real.

[F--B]

I don't understand why Brett views the process of human history as one of 'maturation'. You could just as easily paint it as the opposite.

On a different note, if the ultimate is constantly receding then how are you ever getting closer to it?

[HigherSofia]

Great talk, guys! Much appreciated.

I would just like to plant a seed for a future conversation, as it would be extremely interesting and very valuable for the community if someone hosted a conversation between Dave Snowden, Daniel Smachtenberger, Daniel Görtz and you Vervaeke. These brilliant minds bring together unique perspectives on complexity, systems thinking, the metacrisis, spirituality and cultural evolution that could lead to a really deep, challenging and fruitful discussion.

Snowden’s focus on “scaffolding” and his skepticism of holistic thinking would be a fascinating counterpoint to Görtz’s metamodern vision of integrating new cultural narratives, and then Vervaekes synthesis of science, philosophy and spirituality along with Smachtenberger’s polymath-eagle-eye’s-view could potentially bridge the views or point out their connections rhizomatically, given his work on meta-crisis solutions, civilization design and overall temperament in talks.

It’s a conversation that could really push the boundaries of where we’re at, and leave us with some precious jewels by the end of it. Please take it into serious consideration. And all those who like the idea, like the comment so it gets noticed and the idea grows.

[xavierinthetube]

This is a fantastic conversation. Thanks a lot John for bringing this to us, and to Brendan for taking this topic forward.

I have a question if it happens to be seen by any of you. Is not this in a way a recapitulation of Teilhard de Chardin's Omega Point? The idea of the universe going through a process spearheaded by humanity that is leading to something identical to the greatest good / complexity criticality / self realization.

[MarcosBetancort]

if the critiques set by Vervaeke were posed to a person holding those views critiqued and yet is someone able to enter into constructive dialogue with John, the whole conversation would have made more sense and more profitable than this one. in other words, prearrange someone that is not really from the other camp, but is already committed to the critiques is not as profitable.

[Michael-ntme]

We are going among, between, and throughout a postmodern integral sense, science, and salience of God-gifted humanity coming forth and going forward.

[projectmalus]

"A Universal Learning Process" as part 1, sounds great. Thanks.

[missh]

That was really good Brendan. Thank you (25:00)

[NuanceOverDogma]

Problem with evil is such a weak argument that can easily be debunked. The problem is no one property understands it.
Framing what evil is what is everyones blind spot.

[oliverjamito]

Remember same hands will wiped thy sincere tears from thy eyes!

[PeterIntrovert]

Brendan brings to the table good ideas. I just see the story he is trying to tell based on them as "narrative self-deception" which Metzinger talked about. People interested in it I would send to discussion of TM with JV on this channel and discussion on Brendan's channel with Alexander Bard when he point out some of misguided notions that sneaks in those topics.

[oliverjamito]

And the WORD became Flesh as a little Child born "i" shared "i" AM come forth!

[colorfulbookmark]

Thank you for providing great videos always. I wish Dr.Vervaeke and his quests are happy always.

[CrowMagnum]

The concept of god is like the concept of self, incredibly useful but ultimately an illusion in need of transcendence

[oliverjamito]

Yes, voice not just can be heard from all thy shared ears to HEAR from?