Are We Past Peak CRPG?

My Discord:

It might seem a strange question to ask but the future of CRPGs is uncertain; the proverbial elephant in the room BG3 may have created a new precedent in CRPGs in a positive sense but it also may have created some difficulties for the genre and in this sense it was a double-edged sword, good for BG3 but maybe not so good for the broader category of CRPGs precisely because it did so much, pleased virtually everyone but essentially specialised in nothing. What then remains for the genre after BG3? Will it remain true to its core or shift to something else?

[rb]

I guess the tides were already shifting with DOS2 since it managed to get very popular for a cRPG. I remember there were a lot of comparisons between DOS2 and Deadfire when that came out after, and Deadfire sort of came across as a dying breed of cRPG that could no longer achieve much success, while Larian seemed like they were the future, since DOS2 broke into much broader audiences and was very successful financially.

I enjoy both Larian's and Owlcat's games, but I've always thought they had somewhat different styles of games that were best left separate. I'm just hoping that Owlcat and other developers don't lose sight of their own identity in this pursuit of making their games more BG3-like.

[Saintknick]

I’m 63 and have played many CRPGs since the beginning because this is my favorite genre. I truly enjoy the more traditional games, but I must admit BG3 took it to another level and I’m not talking about the voice and cut scenes which were fantastic, but more importantly were the endless possibilities to complete quests. Many games claim that your choices matter, but rarely deliver to this degree. The replay value is unparalleled. This game and company have given us our money’s worth and more.

[dianabialaskahansen]

I don't think we are past peak crpg. If anything, it feels like BG3 reinvigorated the genre, drawing more people into the genre, people who never played such games before. Being on reddit, I have seen multiple posts from newcomers, who after BG3 wants to continue playing that type of games, and seek recommendations. L

But I do think the genre is evolving, just like it has been evolving ever since the beginning. Graphics and voice acting becoming more and more important for the immersion.

[johnyoungerman]

Thanks for your thoughts as always. I am good with the direction it is going. I enjoy the voiced dialogs and cutscenes. Being born in the 1960's, I have lived through the whole crpg's from its beginnings till now. So it is kind of like...Been there done that and wish to see new stuff. As you mentioned, there will always be smaller studios that will put out good old-fasion crpgs for those that wish nastalga. Peace

[Алексей-тб]

This is not "move away" - this is evolution

[deathbycognitivedissonance]

Yeah, I think BG3 might have distorted reality a bit and I am not sure how a "normal" CRPG would fair these days. Great video.

[newavedave]

For sure the 2D isometric crpg renaissance is over, and both Obsidian and InXile have moved to 3D... I'll miss it terribly, but bizarrely, I'm more optimistic about the future of rpgs in general than I have been for a while. Like, other than the two aforementioned developers, I'm interested in future titles from Larian, Owlcat, CD Projekt Red, and I really hope that HareBrained can get funding & a publisher for their new project. That's six studios to be excited about [no, Bioware don't count anymore. I'm still bitter].

I doubt it'll happen, but I really hope there'll be a sequel to Wasteland 3. Truly the Funnest, Darkest game of recent years.

[musguera]

I think we will always have CRPGs to play, but the classic ones will come from indie devs. I see more positively the future of CRPGs, we will get more big budget CRPGs and will continue to get smaller more classic CRPGs from indie devs. I see the variety of games and the changes in the genre as positive, the appeal for more people be interested in the genre will result in more games for all of us.

[ConscriptedKnightRose]

I mean... I don't think BG3 did anything Dragon Age Origins didn't already do (and the latter did it better in some cases). Cinematics and voice acting is just a presentation style, and as budgeting the rpg mechanics gets easier, then working on presentation is perfectly fine so long as the former is solid. In fact, what BG3 did was more a return to form on the cinematic front, as the cRPG Renaissance did not invest their limited budget on such things. Plus, there's only so much you can do. It's like graphics, aesthetics matters more than fidelity, you only need to invest enough that it looks good.

The lesson that SHOULD have been taken away from BG3 as the next step in cRPGs is the inclusion of subsystems. Terrain effects, status conditions, etc, and the ability to use such things on NPCs and the environment in a way that actually affects the narrative of the game and how you're able to solve quests. Cinematics can attract a mainstream audience, sure, but retention, acclaim, and longterm financial success is always going to come down to the quality of the mechanics and significance to choices available. And THEN you prioritize making it look pretty.

And if you do sacrifice those systems to prioritize the cinematics and voice acting, you end up becoming either a glorified visual novel, or a ubisoft style generic movie-game that is increasingly losing steam even for mainstream audiences. Appealing to new customers is one thing, but it should be obvious by now, you cannot not find success and expand your audience by sacrificing what attracted your core audience to begin with. I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp.

[jervey]

and can you imagine, what some kid (who probably shouldn't even be playing BG3) playing BG3 right now and discovering this whole CRPGs niche can come up with in the future because they were inspired by these contemporary CRPGs?
that would be so interesting! and I'd probably be there in my 40's/50's complaining about what these whippersnappers with their VR parties and demonic cyberpunk music had come up with are not REAL CRPGs!!

[Prometheus-Unbound]

All good points but for me the thing that makes BG3 and DoS2 (which I went to after BG3) is the quality of the storytelling - the technology is a bonus.

[apres-lachute]

Yeah. People gave that dev a lot of crap for his comment back then and he could have phrased it differently but for a lot of people, a CRPG is BG3 and is about it and they would never touch any of the more traditional ones. This will have knock-on effects in the sense that people will now expect such games to be as BG3-esque as possible, specifically the newer fans that never knew the older titles. I share your concern for this reason.

[xeroeddie]

Not a avid CRPG player, but I do love DOS1 and 2. I've been watching your videos lately and you always have an interesting perspective on things, so I'm looking forward to what you're gonna talk about going forward.

[Kaelifer]

an interesting and thought provoking video--well done! my personal 2 cents are this: most crpgs are about storytelling since a lot of their root inspiration is from tabletop roleplay, which is storytelling in a fantasy world. I really don't see how more impressive cinematic experiences like voiced dialogue and cutscenes mean all future crpgs will become "water downed" or "washed".

[Majber]

I hope we will see more great rpg games. I'm waiting. Maybe you could compile some list for next 1-2 years of releases if you are waiting for some rpg games?

[TheGamernews]

I very much doubt it at least for indie’s . BG3 has budget of 100 million which simply isn’t feasible for independent studios to try go with Larian approach to CRPG’s.

Although full VA is possible it very costly and the solutions to this so far is the very controversial usage of AI VA.

Honestly my problem with the in CRPG’s cinematic/ VA is that you can’t half assed it you need to go fully in . To many times it turn to be ok. Owlcat while great at VA there attempts at cinematics ( especially the case for Rogue Trader) are lacklustre, an improvement from there previous games but still l lacklustre.

There will always be a market for traditional CRPG’s. However I’m concerned that more established indie developers will take the lessons in BG3 of what made the game successful which will likely happened but only time will tell in coming years.

[sethrougen]

Honestly, specialy owlcat's goal of going fully voice acting from now on (as they tested the waters with latest dance of the masks dlc for wotr) worries me alot. There are several issues with fully voice acted lines; even though i am fine with very dramatic and important moments being voice acted, i often read faster then the voice actor. Constantly waiting the voice can be boring, specialy in long conversations. And long conversations is often what is needed with alot of vaierty of response and counter response, to make the scene more lively.
And i feel these richness will be first to sacrifice when it met with internal goal of 'lets voice act everything'. Like... already some of the Dance of Masks' narrative decisions felt... ehh.
In an RPG, I prefere more presense and control in the story, not less... Otherwise it becomes a shitty interactive movie, where you Press X to have the illusion to feel you are part of the movie, but movie still playing on its own.

I am disappointed with 'RPGS' like god of war or jedi survivor... Even freaking Jedi Academy from 20+ years ago gave me an ending option. And incidentally how i became awere of rpg genre in general. I rather the genre itself doesnt became superficial shell of itself and instead keep building on its strenghts.
Of course, if we could have both, wouldnt it be better? Yes. But i dont think its possible. Even BG3 despite SOOOO much attention to detail huge budget, time to time feels shallow compare to what i can experience in WOTR or Kingmaker. And no wonder why, when crafting the any scene, developers constantly needs to consider voice acting and motion capturing.

edit: damn it, i edited for spelling and contextualization and lost my heart... oh well, i will cherish it in memory then

[grayearly]

CRPG doesnt really mean computer RPG anymore since the best ones work on all platforms, but it should still mean Complex RPG. Of course it'll get super borinh if every game is a bad copy of BG3, but hopefully owlcat doesnt try to do that because they dont really make the best looking games, but its their mechanics that really make their experiences different and even equal to bg3 in some ways

[jaynunes]

Excellent video. I appreciate you discussing this topic. I think what you said about technical limitations in the past driving game content is very true. I don’t think that we need to lock ourselves in time as technology advances and only rely on what we could do 25 years ago. As RPGs have advanced adopting new technology is just fine. When nights of the old Republic came out 20 years ago, it was fully voiced. It’s still a great RPG. When dragon age origins came out it had cut scenes and is still a great game. I think everything you mentioned is true about these games, but the last thing is choice and the consequence of choice. I think this is a key factor as well. I don’t think having fully voiced games or cut scenes is an issue. I think limiting your options and ability to interact is a problem. Having a dialogue wheel Without full dialogue options reduces your ability to interact more than simply having voiced dialogue or cut scenes. In the end, I think having games evolve with technology is great. I’m looking forward to a fully virtual CRPG one day. That won’t make it good or bad. It’ll just make it different. Let’s just keep making these fantastic games. That’s the biggest goal here overall!

[Hamurator]

The questions which came immediately to my mind in the mid of your video: Isn't the evolution as shown as in BG3 bringing us closer to a more immersive adventure? Cutscenes help to see characters from a different perspective. Voices help to catch the personality of a character faster.