Differences Between Early Buddhism and Theravada: an Essay By Bhante Sujato

There seem to have been differences between Theravāda belief and practice and that found in early Buddhism, however figuring this all out is a matter of some debate and controversy. Translator and scholar Bhikkhu Sujato has written an essay enumerating some key differences he sees. I'll go through six of the more interesting ones.

✅Videos mentioned:

✅Bhikkhu Sujato's essay (and associated discussion thread):

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00:00 Intro
01:48 Controversies
03:14 Bhikkhu Sujato’s role
05:42 1. Authorship of the abhidhamma
08:13 2. Linguistic essentialism
09:43 3. Devotion vs. meditation in practice
11:25 4. “Dry insight” and nirvana
15:48 5. The “radiant mind”
17:50 6. Women’s role in the Buddhist sangha
19:55 Bhikkhu Sujato’s paper as a first draft

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[someoneelse]

I truly appreciate all of the research and hard work you do, as well as your capacity as an orator,
To consider you accomplish this on your own is a feat in it of itself, thank you!



Sadhu sadhu

[natreiyn]

Hi Doug. A little late to this video but it is truly marvelous to receive this information. You are someone who clearly has a real talent for elating such information on such a controversial subject but also extremely beneficial debate. Thank you for this video 🙏

[FranciscoTornay]

IMO, we could avoid a lot of confusion if we agreed to define "enlightenment" as "attaining a radiant mind": it makes sense as a metaphor and explains why thinking of Buddha as "the enlightened one" (as discussed in another video) makes sense because of the radiant mind he attained through the jhanas. Nibbana would be something different, although related ; as someone having achieved Nibbana, the Buddha's proper title is "Tathāgata" (gone for good, gone definitely), as Doug explained in the previous video: two titles for two different attainments

[heinhtetsoe]

I am a buddhist. The Jhana case is taught to me in this way.
Jhana though extremely important, is a very long and arduous task. Some spend decades of their lives and achieved seemingly nothing special.
And also, Jhana never fades away. Even after, buddhism and all buddha's teachings are gone, Jhana will remain. Concentration practices exist in almost any religions.
But vipassana or applying buddha's teachings on your own body with your own mind's eye is special. It can only exist during the Buddha's "Sarsanar".
So famous monks push their students to only focus a little on Jhana and make the most of Vipassana because life is too short. Most people who are into religion are at extremely old ages. Their body is not suitable for extremely long periods of concentration anymore.

[xiaomaozen]

I love Early Buddhism due to its pragmatism and down-to-earth approach. This video (and Bhante Sujato's essay) corroborate my love... 😁😉

😊🙏

[teddycrecelius]

Glad you are posting new videos again. Thanks.

[alakso]

Just a simple Dhamma practitioner finding wisdom in all schools of Buddhism, Taoism, Indigenous, etc.. For Buddhism I rely on the teachings of the Buddha (Suttas) and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu also know as the second Buddha. 🙏🏼

[apurvaj]

Hi Doug, Some of my thoughts on differences between Early Buddhism (what I call as Moolyana) and Theravada...

1. There was a considerable constant change in the political environment of Magadh since the time of Shakyamuni Buddha to the time of Emperor Asoka. This entire period of time was a time where the society of Magadh seems to have many voices, many opinions as the empire of Magadh constantly grew generation over generation and consolidated its position as pan India entity. When such a thing happens for a society, it further generally gains more space to express opinions and different views. In fact, this is the period when first three (some may consider four) councils of Buddhism and first council of Jainism took place. And in all of such councils, we can see people having different views and opinions, and at most times a split within a tradition happening.

2. Abhidamma has a lot of similarity in the "dryness" you mentioned to that of Emperor Asoka's Dhamma. In fact, the time of Asoka seems to be the one when Abhidamma was codified and actually became very popular.

3. About Acharya Buddhagosa saying Pali being a natural language. Well, I can somewhat relate to him.. Pali and Prakrit grew as one can say, dialect of Sanskrit. If you try teaching Sanskrit to a child as his mother tongue, he will not actually speak Sanskrit at first. Rather he would speak a language which is cruder form of Sanskrit. It is in this way, Pali and Prakrit became a language for all common people who didn't actually spent considerable time studying Sanskrit or were seriously into academics. It took considerable time and academic dedication to be adept in Sanskrit. In this sense, Pali can be said a natural language compared to Sanskrit, which has always been language for scholars and people well-versed in academics in India. Hence, Buddhagosa himself being a scholar would have found this natural aspect of Pali.

4. Of course, I think people should not be restricted by gender, whatever that gender be, to be part of Sangha... And people should come up with better reasons if they still have any opposition to this and should not just go by belief. One must understand that the story of Buddhism is also one of a generational change, as I mentioned above.

5. Being an Indian and having born and raised in this culture, I feel that Indian way of thinking is more about the truth than the fact. It's more about the practice than the philosophy. And we may never know with 100% accuracy about all that Buddha taught in terms of fact. And even if one worries and finds all of this and not actual and sincere practice of this, I feel that it's of no use. This doesn't mean one should stop looking for things but there is a limitation to historical reconstructions. I feel one can actually find what Buddha taught by sincere practice and an enquiry within. More than facts, there should be a focus on the truth. Different generations over time have had different expressions to refer to this practice and enquiry. Therefore we find tons of traditions in Buddhism. Hence, I don't like this view by traditional Theravada followers that "oh we know the real shit" or even this view by the Mahayana folks that "oh our shit is the most evolved thing." It's just that people express stuff according to their time, generation, environment and resources.

[grafinvonhohenembs]

Hey, Doug! This was super ineresting! I've definitely bookmarked the essay to read later. Thanks so much for sharing this! Hope you and your wife are doing well and that things with the house are going as smoothly as possible.

[zerkelvin]

My meditation teacher follows the Theravada tradition. He does ackowledge the jhanas, but tells us that the focus is on satipatthana, mindful observation of the body, sensation, feeling, liking/disliking, thoughts, dhammas (sets of reality). Just adding my personal experience with the theravada tradition about the jhana, if it may be useful.

[soezone]

Hi Doug, Excellent video as always!!

It is getting spicy. I just love what Bhante Sujato is doing. That isn't an easy job at all even though I disagree on quite a number of them. I am from Burma, the stronghold of Abhidhamma, and was a monk from Mahasi. The town where I live is the birthplace of Both Pha auk and Mahasi. After I found out Dry insight and Samadi are big controversies on the internet, I tried to discuss this topic. But I have never really seen them fighting over whether dry insight is right or not. They don't seem to have many opinions at all on this matter. Abbot just told me every monastery has its own method when you are here, practice my methods. here Monks are really quite fluid. They move between monasteries whenever they felt like it.

[NullStaticVoid]

I've gone through a number of different Buddhist traditions in the last few decades.
Theravada might not be identical to the earliest Buddhist practice. However I find it to be the least religious version that is still practiced.
This might sound strange, aren't they all religious? Well some schools place more emphasis on veneration of aspects of the Buddha as salvation in themselves. Really not being much different from Catholicism in the way that they pray before statues for intercession on their behalf.
All Buddhism has a fair amount of mythological tales. But Mahayana branch schools seem to be more invested in fantastical tales of supernatural beings, not as parable or metaphor, but as the thing in itself.
Theravada is bit more philosophical though it has it's fair share of prayerfulness and myth.

[chadkline]

In reality, I don't see that the Thai forest tradition (Theravada) differs from early Buddhism as you described. Not that I have seen. I never saw anyone that thinks the Abhidhamma was around in the Buddha's time. And I think more than scholars, we need people that actually accomplish supramundane attainments that put forth what they know so there can be some correlation between experiences and the texts to ferret out the plain truths of the path. I strongly dislike the obfuscation that surrounds the 4 stages of enlightenment because I think it damages Buddhism as the 'scientific' path it was intended to be, for the most part. I have heard that it is an eastern superstition that making such things clear prevents their attainment due to expectation, but I don't agree with that. People forget easily enough, and at the highest stages, there is no mind anyway. Lack of clarity/definition relegates Buddhism to the nature of most western religions.

[luciobrazil]

So interesting. I’m an archaeologist and want to study the early remains of Buddhist communities

[ChitNoeOo-dl]

This man is so wise in his way. SANGA community can't compare his wisdom.

[chericruz]

A very clear and balanced presentation on the differences, tq Dr Doug, Richard D CRUZ, Malaysia.

[FARiad-tbui]

Very high quality content here. It's a matter of time before this channel explodes and gets 100ks views. Don't be hardhearted by the limited views please. Youtube recommended this to me so you're getting there.

[rinatturganbekov]

Thank you for this video. Until now I actually thought that Theravada is almost the same as Early Buddhism. I never knew that it was difficult for women to restore their tradition in Theravada. It makes me a bit sad.

[luizmiguelsantos]

A important and illuminating video, Doug. Thank you !

[jacobwinskell]

Haven't yet listened to this one but wanted to thank you for your recommendation of Alex Wynne's work in one of your jhana vids. His lectures led me to Grzegorz Polak's Reexamining Jhana. Thanks for your continued work in sharing these discussions. Nice vids!