Richard Wolff & Michael Hudson: Karl Marx and the Fall of the West

Richard Wolff is Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and a visiting professor at The New School, where he works on economics in the Marxist tradition. Michael Hudson is Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City and President of the Institute for the Study of Long-Term Economic Trends. He researches domestic and international finance, the history of economics, and the role of debt in shaping class stratification, among many other topics. This is Richard’s sixth appearance on Robinson’s Podcast. In episode #127, he and Robinson discussed some of the most profound criticisms of capitalism; in #154, they focused on the myths surrounding Marxism and Marx himself; in #190 they covered the Israel-Palestine conflict from a Marxist perspective; in #222 they assessed the end of the American Empire; and in #230, they talked about the 2024 election. This is Michael’s fourth appearance on the show. In episode #180, he and Robinson discussed neoliberalism, industrial capitalism, and the rentier economy; in #198 they talked about Marxism, economic parasites, and contemporary debt cancellation; and in #220, they cover the history of debt cancellation in the ancient world. But in this episode, Richard, Michael, and Robinson turn back to the present, and more particularly they focus on the role of Marxism in shaping today’s world and how ignoring his work is contributing to the rapid decline of the west. They touch on the role of Marxism in an economics education, the connections between communism, socialism, and capitalism, the crumbling American empire, the 2024 election, Russia and Ukraine, China and the BRICS, the strength of the dollar, Das Kapital, Paul Krugman, myths about Karl Marx, and more. Richard’s latest book is Understanding Capitalism (Democracy at Work, 2024). Michael’s most recent book is Temples of Enterprise (ISLET, 2024).

OUTLINE
00:00 Introduction
00:51 Michael and Rick’s Histories with Marx
16:50 A Marxless Education
29:42 Marxism and the West
35:18 Marx and the Emergence of Capitalism
43:59 Socialism Vs State Capitalism
49:21 The Culmination of Economics in Marx
57:16 The Crucial Features of Marxism
1:12:15 Marx, China, and the BRICS
1:25:57 The Laws of Motion of Finance Capitalism
1:28:58 Why Won’t Mainstream Media Interview Michael Hudson and Richard Wolff?
1:42:16 Why is the American Empire Crumbling?
1:54:51 Is the Dollar Destroying the United States?
2:01:38 Marx as the Culmination of Classical Economics
2:10:19 Will Trump’s China Tariff Policy Spell Disaster for America?
2:22:43 Is Trump’s Policy on Russia Idiotic?
2:27:23 Does It Matter for America Who Wins the Election?
2:37:13 Michael’s Rhetorical Abilities
2:43:54 How Can We Use Economics to Forecast the Future?
2:54:48 Does Paul Krugman Know Anything About Economics?
2:57:57 How Michael Got His PhD
3:04:59 What’s Wrong With the Nobel Prize in Economics?
3:10:04 The Long and Short of Marx’s Kapital
3:17:20 Capitalism and Labor
3:31:51 The Biggest Myth About Karl Marx

Robinson Erhardt researches symbolic logic and the foundations of mathematics at Stanford University.

[robinsonerhardt]

This episode came on the heels of a traumatic, eight-interview sprint in NYC. As you’ll see, this one was particularly chaotic, but the stars aligned to make it happen. Camera switches, bathroom breaks, health concerns, equipment malfunctions, and even a robbery didn’t prevent the conversation from coming together. With this in mind, I hope you’ll forgive how crazy and inconsistent the video is; the fact that it even got put together is courtesy of my friend and editor Yu Guo (a philosopher who got his PhD from NYU with past guest Paul Boghossian). Given that there’s some new intro music, and you’re already getting an abundance of distracting production nuggets, I decided to show the soup being made. My thanks go to Richard, who met with me twice in three days (not to mention his wife, who allowed it), and Michael, who put up with me for over four hours.



- Robinson

P.S. Toward the end of the episode Michael eats a jerky stick from Maui Nui Venison, which is a company operating out of Hawaii that manages the invasive deer population of Maui that is decimating the landscape. Instead of culling the animals and disposing of their bodies, the meat is butchered and sold. It is the only meat I eat, full-stop, and the ethical reasons are sufficient for this, but it is also the best meat that I have ever had. I reached out to Maui Nui and told them that I support what they are doing and would like to be of any help that I can. They gave me this coupon code—ROBINSON—which you can use for 15% off. I am not being paid for this in any way. I believe in what they are doing and I want this model to succeed. People are going to be eating meat for the foreseeable future and I would be happier if it was not factory-farmed meat. So please check Maui Nui out and give them a try!

[raymooney-kt]

I left school at about 15 1/2 years, without learning one single useful piece of knowledge. I was an avid reader of UK MSM for the next 40 years. Then wham I switched off the TV and never bought another newspaper and bingo my education started in earnest. I am not sure for how much longer voices of clarity will be aired on YouTube etc but I feel very fortunate to have heard truly gifted intellectuals share their knowledge for FREE . A genius makes the complex sound straightforward, a conman the other way around. A million thanks to Michael and Richard’s parents for bringing them into this world, also keep going Robinson with this imported work .

[bevhofmann]

What an interesting compilation of the education and memories of these two gentlemen. I am 80 years old and truly value the information that can be shared. So much is lost when the world loses people of this stature.

[treyquattro]

two of the giants of non-classical economics in one place. What a treat! And God knows we need one. Thanks, Michael, Richard, and Robinson.

[xemy]

3 minutes in and I'm already hooked. Hudson + Wolff conversations are always interesting and I believe this is the first time I've seen them together in person. Really appreciate the work that goes into setting up these interviews.

[tompham]

Greetings from Vietnam 🇻🇳.
Thank you Prof.Wolff and Mr.Hudson for sharing this interesting information and conversation.

[DylanGeick]

These chats are such a privilege. Thanks for sharing as always.

[galadrielnerwenartanis]

This is what is missing in our society today, wisdom and lived experience being imparted from the seasoned to the new generation in a talking circle. This made my heart smile!

[sarasumayya]

We in India were taught capitalism,
communism, Marxism et al in school.
It’s unfathomable that a “liberal” nation like The USA did not!
It was an enlightening conversation. Thank you

[anasjalil]

Listening from Kuala Lumpur.
I consider Hudson and Wolf as my teacher since more than 10yrs ago.

[ACitizen]

I really love that you're three guys in a park talking about politics, random people walking by and all. Society should look more like this

[mehdimehdikhani]

congrats for bringing these two together. This will be a valuable treasure on internet for sure. I hope you can organize debates and bring two opposing scholars to your show and moderate it.

[jeffesteve]

This is better than going to university. I listen to this 3 times . So insightful and fulfilling.Thank you .

[postyoda]

Yeah, Milton Friedman said there's no free lunch in free market capitalism; it's hilarious as it's all free lunch for the rentier class and those who have privileged access to credit, inherit land and productive means.

[conorknapp]

Words cannot describe my gratitude for making this interview happen. Two of the finest minds in modern economics together to discuss their ideas. This kind of conversation is invaluable. Thank you for all your hard work Robinson

[gaspode]

Robin, just on a human to human level, this conversation between Richard and Michael is beautiful. Thank you for putting it together.

[joaomartins]

Thank you very much, Mr. Robinson Erhardt for this excellent interview with Prof. Michael Hudson and Prof. Richard Wolff. Kind regards (Porto, Portugal)

[michaelmckinley]

Just came off from book launch panel with Gabriel Rockhill, Radhika Desai, and John Bellamy Foster on Losurdo’s Western Marxism, to find this discussion. What an incredible Sunday. My favorite Marxist thinkers!! My head is spinning!

[Bazilhatz]

I'm 62 years old but understand the core issues and seeing youngster's as yourself Robinson gives me hope for the planet and it's life. Thanks my friend for creating these extremely important and knowledgeable podcasts from your platform.👍❤️🌍🌎🌏

[BlowsAgainsttheEmpire]

Now this is a great & noteworthy talk, thanks Robinson.👍