Interview with Diarmaid MacCulloch on Thomas Cromwell

(you can read a full transcription of this fascinating conversation on this page)

From the Travels Through Time podcast, recorded live at the Buxton International Festival.

Travels Through Time is a mix of serious history and playful parlour game.
Each episode features an interview with one of the world’s leading historians or public figures. They are asked the question:

“If you could travel back in time, what year would you like to visit?”

And then they tell us why.
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The Fall of Anne Boleyn
“I think Anne Boleyn’s fatal mistake was to snigger at the King in the presence of handsome young men. And I don’t think she did anything more than that.” - (Professor Diarmaid MacCulloch)

Thomas Cromwell, a self-described “ruffian”, was King Henry VIII’s chief minister in the 1530s. He was clever, driven and ruthless, qualities that have captivated novelists and historians for generations as they have attempted to capture his mysterious essence.

The year 1536 saw Cromwell at the peak of his career. As chief administrator of the realm he had vast and wide-ranging powers, but he also had enemies. Prominent among these was the King’s second wife, Anne Boleyn. In one of the most infamous episodes in all of English history, the spring of 1536 saw Cromwell and Anne in combat for their lives. The story concluded with Anne Boleyn’s execution at the Tower of London in May.

Professor Diarmaid MacCulloch and Thomas Cromwell
In this live episode of Travels Through Time, recorded at the Buxton International Festival , we revisit the high-wire act of Henry VIII’s court with Professor Diarmaid MacCulloch of the University of Oxford. Diarmaid is a hugely respected scholar of Tudor England and the Reformation and last year he published his authoritative Thomas Cromwell: A Life.

In three tantalising scenes, Diarmaid guides us through 1536 from Thomas Cromwell’s point of view. He shows us a plot, a rebellion and a triumph: scenes that take us to the very heart of one of the pivotal times in English history.

Scene One: 24 May 1536: Ambassador Eustache Chapuys and Thomas Cromwell debriefing after the execution of Anne Boleyn. The inside story of Tudor politics and Cromwell's quiet alliance with the Lady Mary against Queen Anne.

Scene Two: The moment (no direct information, so supposition necessary) around 3 October 1536 when King Henry VIII was told of the Lincolnshire Rising, after the government had been looking in the wrong place for trouble.

Scene Three: 22 December 1536: Thomas Cromwell sits in his house at the Rolls listening to the sounds of the magnificent procession of the King from Whitehall to Greenwich down Fleet Street. He and the King have apparently yielded to all the demands of the Pilgrims of the North and their leader Robert Aske is due to spend Christmas with the King. In fact, after the remarkable turnaround in November, the King is backing Cromwell and will betray the rebels.

Memento: The keyboard that Mark Smeaton played for Anne Boleyn

Presenter: Peter Moore
Guest: Professor Diarmaid MacCulloch
Recording/Live Mix: Hannah Griffiths
Post production: Maria Nolan
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[dragonclaws]

When he said you're annoyed by this man staring at you I spit out my coffee. He is a wonderful storyteller, I am a huge Anne supporter and I found some room in my heart for him. ( Cromwell.)

[lindawhitehead]

I can aee I must now expand my reading list to encompass all of professor macCulloch's works, starting of course with Cromwell. I was stalled out in the middle of book 3 of Hilary's, dreading the downfall of thomas, and now somehow I feel braver to carry on. Thanks for sharing this.

[ElizabethF]

Excellent podcast! I can think of two people who have brought the Tudors to life. One is Hans Holbein, with his glorious portraits; the other is Eustace Chapuys with his ever-so-enlightening dispatches to his master, Emperor Charles. I love what Eustace said to Cromwell in Wolf Hall about Anne Boleyn (before her fall); "She's desperate and dangerous. Strike first before she strikes you." I believe that's exactly what Cromwell did. Anne sure did like helping people along to their deaths, didn't she? I admire her courage, but I think she was ruthless and cruel, especially to KOA and Mary!!

[triciadeverese]

A fascinating insight which l thoroughly this from a supporter of Anne Boleyn ! History is endlessly interesting and we learn more and more as people like Prof. MacCulloch do the research for us. Thank you .

[henryjohnfacey]

This is fantastic. Thank you for posting.

[tesssanders]

In my 70s now, my first time learning about Henry VIII was the old 1933 movie The Private Life of Henry VIII with Charles Laughton in my view the best portrayal ever! I wished there had been more and so I began reading which was the beginning of my road to a degree in History (after I joined the sevice during Vietnam I changed to military history) but Tudor history was fun.
I'm always a bit amazed at history's change in direction on how "wonderful" Anne Boleyn was when she was anything but! I realize her image was reshaped during Queen Elizabeth's long reign which I truly believe is why she's popular today because if not for her daughter what good traits did she have? She was universally disliked even her own family. Not for nothing because you can read part of her own personality in her first motto
"Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne", which when translated means "Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be" The worst though is her treatment of Mary, that she hated her and wanted her demeaned and beaten if for nothing else but "for being the accursed bastard she is", she was just mean and cruel. Today she's praised!

[AbiShafi]

“The more you know about Henry VIII the more you dislike him” the same could be said of Thomas Howard, Stephen Gardiner, Thomas Wriothesley and of course Richard Rich. Of course you could also say they were mealy products of their times.

[Gaverny]

6:30- "and he's reading the Telegraph." 😆...
Even as a 30 yr old american from North Carolina, I get this reference. Great job on this interview btw, cheers 👍.

[daveyr]

Excellent listening. Thank you very much.

[jimtussing]

Great discussion. I’ve always felt that Cromwell was killed when the King realized his accumulated power and independent will and, most importantly, his ability to dissemble which probably rivaled his own. The King had replaced Wolsey, no reason for him to believe he couldn’t replace Cromwell. Squandered resources.

[cinemaocd]

There are so many ways in which Cromwell's relationship with Henry was like an abusive romantic relationship. He's the bad boyfriend you just can't leave. Had Cromwell's career not survived the Pilgrimage period he probably would have lived out his life happily in Italy....

[catherinenelson]

Intriguing. I want to read Hillary Mantels books again.

[ElizabethF]

PS Wolsey's biggest mistake was making an enemy out of Anne Boleyn.

[Justificus]

Is there any part of English history more convoluted and interesting than the Tudor period? I think not. So many backstories and distinct personalities. So much to gain, so much to lose!

[joeoconnor]

I have enjoyed reading Diarmaid Maculloch's books, but am concerned that Hilary Mantel's triology is being treated as historical facts

[celestebivin]

I'm sorry, the more I learn about Henry the 8th the more I'm fascinated by him and want to read more about him. I like him.... Of course in his later years I would have wanted to stay as much out of his line of sight as possible.

[jonathananderinholmes]

If I might add something here on Anne Boelyn- Its a fairly unpopular opinion to express that Anne just wasnt all that. I dont think she was. Many people do faun over her. But Ive always wondered what was her EXACT appeal? I agree with the comments suggesting the traits that make you appealing as a mistress can be unacceptable as a wife- but that didnt stop Henry. (I also wonder if he actually believed she would, what, shape up when she became his queen? Legally speaking, she was never trained to behave as a queen should, so in that sense, why should we fault her?) I think she was merely the striking opposite of Queen Katherine, and Henry as per usual, only cared about whichever woman was able to bear him a son. Jane Seymore did nothing on her throne EXCEPT give birth to one male child only- and yet Henry holds her up as this almost goddess figure for the rest of his life, including referring to her as the one true queen or his one true love- words to that effect (please forgive my lack of direct quote, ) but with the point remaining, he only cared so much for her because they had a son together. Woopdeee Doo. (unless youre trying to maintain a dynasty, then, of course woopdee doo, yay, hoorah hoorah, and so forth.) Cromwell, (in my continued lengthy opinion, I do realize it, ) was such a worthy adversary for Anne. They were two sides of the same coin, both requiring Henrys validation and favour to exist at all, really. We all know if Anne gave birth to a son, shed have had full immunity to any charge or gossip thrown at her. Shed have been immortalized like Jane. Nobody could have touched her. I think Cromwells hugest mistake was actually with Anne of Cleves. Simply put, whether or not Henry found her attractive, he needed a scapegoat to blame for not being able to consummate the marriage- and we all know many of the reasons he may not have been able to do so. Cromwell simply took the fall for Henrys private reproductive health issue(s). He couldnt perform the Husbandly Stuff, and so somebody had to pay because he couldnt blame Anne of Cleves, and he needed to achieve saving face internationally. The irony that Cromwell ends up the same as Boelyn is just.... well friends, thats 16th centry Tudor England for us!

[keithrobinson]

Guardian=good, Telegraph=bad . When your world is that simple a great deal of reality will be too much for you. Best stay in your bubble and never take the risk.

[valkyriesardo]

Was Henry truly become "lazy" or was he disabled? Henry suffered from obesity and a leg wound in his later years. Such things would slow anybody down. Boleyn failed to adapt to marriage. The same traits which are endearing in a mistress can be obnoxious in a wife. Catherine of Aragon had remained a dutiful wife, a respected and popular queen, and a political advantage with Spain. Anne brought none of those values to the table. Having dumped Catherine despite her virtues, Henry had no cause to hesitate in dispatching Anne with the least amount of fuss.

[wisedupearly]

Do you really think that Alesias(?) would lay the ultimate blame on her father Henry?