P-51 Mustang Out-Turned by Fw 190 D-9? Yes, This Happened But...

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Did a Fw 190 D-9 aka Dora out-turn a P-51? According to an interview on Flight Line Media, yes. I find the story to be entirely credible for reasons I'll outline in this video.

[ceddavis]

Pilot and engineer here. We like it when you do the math.

[Trojan]

My German books on Dora units point out there were few experienced pilots that could fly Dora to its max.

[hanswolfgangmercer]

As someone who has gotten unreasonably frustrated about getting stomped by mustangs in the Dora, I thank you for making this video. It really contextualizes and bears out a lot of the impression I had gotten in my fights. Your last comment about the Dora being one the aircraft you perform best with is interesting to me as well. I find that all Fw-190 missions for me, either in DCS or IL-2, are either huge successes or crushing defeats. There's very little middle ground with this aircraft.

[erickleven]

I kinda like the thought that:
If you pull too hard:
-Below Maneuvering Speed, your wing stalls and you fall out of the sky.
-Above Maneuvering Speed, your wings fall off and you fall out of the sky.

Don't Pull Too Hard.

Great video as always, Greg! Thank You.

[drkjk]

All these well researched and produced videos. Greg, when do you find time to fly?

[maxsmodels]

There are so many variables that change so quickly moment by moment. This is what makes first hand accounts so confusing. They cannot take in account for the other guys energy state etc.

[getit]

My God, that dreaded diamond emblem on the tail sends shivers down my spine every single time . . .

[Hell-On-Wheels]

The FW 190 D9 was the best piston engine fighter of World War II, according to fighter pilots, aces and test pilots like Eric Winkle Brown and Chuck Yeager. There was an interview with BGEN Chuck Yeager, he was asked about his experience at Wright-Patterson in 1945-47, and especially about flying captured Axis aircraft. "Which was best?" He replied quickly: "That long-nose Focke-Wulf was maybe the best piston-engine fighter I ever flew. As long as you stayed below 25, 000 feet."

[FliesFLL]

There's a story about how Kurt Tank, the designer of the FW-190 took a high altitude version of this airplane called a TA-152 to a factory. En route, he was "jumped" by a couple of P-51's; He simply turned on the water-methanol injection system on his Junkers Jumo engine and pushed the throttle to the end of its travel.

He left the Mustangs in the dust....

[drgondog]

First, Bill Lyons stalled in a high G turn to meet the attacking FW-190Ds, and stalled out. It was not a maneuvering turn engagement. The 190D shot at him in the quick pass at Lyons in a spin. Lyons recovered and caught one of the 190s chasing his flight leader and shot it down. Further Lyons four ship flight was flying CAP for rest of the 357FS strafing Kothen airfield, closer to 5K. As a final point Lyons load out was probably ejected wing tanks, and burn of fuselage tank to 20-30gal. I obtained this data from Bill back in 2007 when I was researching my book on the 355th.

That doesn't detract from Greg's presentation to discuss 'in general' maneuver comparisons.

The only issue I take with the technical discussion is that CLmax (max lift coeffcient) is critical - and can be 'reasonably' Estimated by symmetric stall for power on. Not having the FW 190D Stall speed and resultant 'estimated' CLmax is kind a non starter for a thorough discussion. That is the easy part.


The other factors which must be considered for accurate discussion include;
1. Turning fights at constant altitude, assuming equal pilot skill, equal internal load out for comparative Gross weights are by NECESSITY 'asymmetric' flight conditions - namely more lift on high wing and lower lift on low wing, imposing more drag on upper wing, while at same time approaching CLmax. The first wing to stall is the upper wing with higher relative angle of attack. Further the 190 had an unusual washout, constantly decreasing to 80% semi span - then constant = 0. This resulted in lower Induced drag but also less aileron authority as the lift distribution tapered quickly near the wing tip..
2. Developing a model for comparisons requires an estimate to include trim drag imposed by pilot on rudder and elevator to track in level flight as an additional component to Hp lost.
3. Power Available for full speed range in the model is required and, as Greg noted, propeller efficiency has wide variations as a function of airspeed, density altitude and tip speed when at high altitude. Lowest efficiency for the P-51 Ham Std prop was in turning at low speed in less than optimal blade pitch angle. Suspect FW 190 prop as bad.
Power Available for this discussion also must look to 'power sucking' factors like increased Pressure Drag over prop diameter vortex across fuselage and wing immersed in the vortex, THP generated by exhaust gas thrust, THP losses due to cooling drag and momentum recovery of carb intakes. By comparison the drag of the Mustang was superior to the FW 190 for all these discussions. The FW 190 compensated with higher power available in several flight envelopes.
4. Constant altitude Flight is maintained when Lift x Cosign of Bank Angle = Gross Weight. The 'break' between a level altitude turn and a descending cork screw is when CLmax is approached and CLmax is a function of Angle of Attack (as TAS approaches Stall).
5. When CLmax is reached with high wing, increasing bank angle or reducing airspeed causes loss of a sufficient Lift vector to maintain level flight.
6. Any discussion about using combat flap settings with either fighter is meaningful only when talking about creating sharper turn/bank for a deflection shot - but dramatically increases drag and the initial high G turn rate can not be sustained - either in Rate of turn or constant altitude. See 3 above.

Even though these nagging complaints were rattling my attention I still enjoyed Greg's presentation.

[AlanToon-fyhg]

Remember that in the fall of 1944 G-suits began to be issued to American fighter pilots.
I have not read anything about the combat use of flaps by Mustang pilots as well.

[basilmoncrief]

Greg, as always, you are insanely informative and entertaining.

[Z-S-H]

I love how you point out in no uncertain terms that what happens is completely situational despite the math of "this work/doesn't work on paper".
I like how you also say that of course pilot difference in skill and physicality (ability to handle Gs) would matter also.
Great Video!

[cabanford]

I'm a 61 year old professional paragliding pilot and can handle 6g for 90 seconds (maybe more & longer but that's as high and long as they let me 🙂) on the G-Force trainer... Many of the young pilots would pass out at much lower Gs and times.


So much of flying a WWII fighter has to go down to each individual pilot - both their flying skills, but also their specific physiology. There must have been *huge* differences just in this single aspect.


Love this channel ❤❤❤

[drlong]

Taking the time to be greatful is something we should all do. Glad to hear you did!

[Leon_der_Luftige]

Appreciate your videos for the balanced look on the matter.

What I am getting from this comparison: These planes are so similar, factors that have nothing to do with the planes themselves like positioning and accumulated energy advantage before the engagement are much more decisive in battle than having a tiny edge on a chart.

[TempusFugit]

On the subject of P-51 turning ability, there was an interesting "Flight Journal" article about Japanese pilots evaluating captured P-51 C "Evaline" and claiming that it out-turned the Ki-84. My best guess would be that the squadron "hot-shot" was flying the Mustang against a beginner in the Hayate.

[jsa]

I think that quite a few fighters from that period qualify as hotrods, and infact the Spitfire is probably the most deserving of the title, as it did so in 2 different forms:

1)In it Merlin evolutionary path, it went from ~1000hp to ~1700hp in a relatively short period of time, by using improved fuels/ increased boost, newer tech Superchargers etc. Shame these Spits never got the 2000hp Merlin 130 series, that would have been quite a thing in the mkviii airframe.

2) replacing the Merlin with the Griffon on the mkxii, xiv and later marks. 'No replacement for displacement'. Massive power from an additional 10l capacity. The coolings on these aircraft, shaped to fit the rocker covers of the Griffon, are pure hotrod.

[peterknight]

I recall once reading a spitfire pilot also complaining of being outturned by a 190. The 190 had a 10 degree flap setting for takeoff, any pilot daring enough to use that in a turning fight might well be able to pull a tighter radius without damaging the flaps.

[rayschoch]

Nicely done, as usual, and thorough, also as usual. I'm not a pilot. My dad flew F6F-5s in combat, and after his tour, trained for most of 1945 in the F4U-4. I lack the expertise to figure out if either of those planes would fit into the calculations for Greg's video scenario, so I just enjoy the bits that I understand and wait for the next one.