Why BJJ beats Catch Wrestling

I've been thinking a lot about why it is that BJJ is so popular and Catch is not. Obviously there are a lot of reasons, but I think I may have stumbled on to one of the main reasons.

Let me know if you agree.

[Kurtwuckertjr]

It's the culture as a whole. I'm a BJJ brown belt with good Judo and Wrestling takedowns. When a wrestler, Judoka or grappler of any circle comes into the room, I love to have rounds with them and learn from them. Absorbing their best techniques into my Jiu-Jitsu is the goal just as much as I hope to absorb a new friend into my circle.

At the few Catch clubs (and some "street realism" sorts of places) that I have gone to on occasion, I get nothing but grief. I don't tell anyone my pedigree, but if I end up in guard and hitting a sweep or sub, I immediately get the lecture about how BJJ is XYZ-ineffective FROM THE GUY WHO I JUST BEAT!

This is frankly toxic, and super sad because the history of wrestling is incredible and important.

[awesomereviews]

Been doing Catch Wrestling since 2003. Here is what I can say about it. Catch wrestling is superior for street fighting/ real fight because the locks are objectively superior and designed to main you ( and not to make you tap) and it has an emphasis on being on top and get the job done quickly ( streets fights are rarely one on one so being on the bottom/spending a lot of time is a bad idea). But BJJ is better for competitions because rules are made around BJJ. It’s very frustrating to enter a competition and find out most of your tools are either forbidden or you can’t use it the way it was designed. Also Catch Wrestling isn’t magical in the sense that you will beat everyone that don’t practice it. In truth martial arts don’t work that way, the better fighter will win 80% of the time regardless of the style they are doing. You can’t teach talent.

[henriquenakamura]

Before MMA and the Gracies blew up to their current popularity, Luta Livre was relatively common in Brazil. I remember hearing the name a lot when I was growing up, and schoolyard play-wrestling was almost universally called "luta livre". I even had a neighbor who trained it! Tatu and his students were notorious for winning Gracie challenge matches (with Leg locks, nonetheless!), and a lot of the old-school brazilian MMA guys like Jose Aldo also have black belts in Luta livre.

Since Luta Livre is to CACC what BJJ is to judo, I think there are some interesting parallels. There are probably socio-economic reasons why even LL guys preferred to publicize their BJJ ranks instead (poorer people tended to gravitate towards LL instead of BJJ because gis were expensive and had to be custom-made), but I don't wanna get too much into this.

Either way, I believe Snake Pit is making some waves here in the US because they've adopted some of that BJJ culture you were talking about. They're ok with people integrating catch into their jitsu or collegiate/folkstyle, their learning materials are straightforward, and I've seen SP-affiliated schools posting videos of their newer students just drilling. I've never been lucky enough to train at a gym that does CACC as its primary thing, but I've trained shortly under Gokor and Sambo Steve (who's obviously a sambo guy, but has some catch experience), and both coaches were 100% open and accepting of any grappling background. I've been trying to incorporate more CACC techniques and concepts into my BJJ, which has helped my grappling immensely.

I really hope to see neighborhood CACC schools popping up in the next decade or so.

[harmonicarchipelgo]

There's also the massive gap in sheer notoriety. The Gracie family used the first few UFCs as the Ultimate Fighting Commercial for BJJ which directly led to most MMA guys learning at least a little BJJ, especially in the early days. People are more inclined to practice the art they see winning interdisciplinary matches at the highest level. Catch came late to the scene and is playing catch up in an era where grapplers can't dominate strikers with no grappling experience for easy notoriety.

[CrazyTom]

BJJ black belt who has also worked some really good catch guys and have done a little bit of catch, and I really think you hit a nail on the head here, the catch community's culture is rough. I also think the way catch has defined itself as "not jiu jitsu" and coming to catch circles from jiu jitsu I faced all sorts of weird aggression, I'd attend seminars and then get like late night messages from other attendees out of blue telling me that jiu jitsu was making me a shitty grappler. One of my very good friends is an excellent catch wrestler who had been through drama after drama in that community and mostly summed it up with it not being worth it.

[hiltonian_]

There’s also the question of promotion. The BJJ people have been much more aggressive about marketing and expansion.

There’s a guy I used to know who started a little publishing house called Invisible Cities Press. Some guy named Gracie approached him about publishing wrestling manuals. Last time I saw him he was driving a BMW Z3.

[dhalav]

it feels like that there is a certain "trauma" inherited from the 2000's when catch wrestling resurfaced and acted like a frog trying to be bigger than the bull because it was accused of being bullshido or a made-up style. Lots of infighting about who was legit, lots of bragging about being better than bjj, lot of fear about being perceived as illegitimate/fraud, probably a fear about catch techniques and principles being absorbed, rebranded and sold as new by bjj (which is a valid concern). Catch second birth was kinda rough but it's time to try growing past it

[rafaelbabar]

This has needed to be said for so long. I usually struggle to keep my comment short but this smacks the nail so sharply on the head that it really is the last word on this topic.

[lewisb]

The trouble is and I say this as someone who competed in Judo at the University level in the UK and does BJJ now, it's about classism wrestling was seen as distinctively working class in this country whilst judo was seen as more middle class possibly because when it came to the UK it was marketed to the middle classes in regards to costing etc who were already training jujitsu (particularly popular amongst ladies). When I went to public (private) military school the two martial arts as PE options were Judo and Savate (I did both). I see the BJJ/Catch wrestling thing as almost the same have we really moved on after a hundred years? Catch's marketing hasn't worked. I think due to stories like my dad has told about his instructor trying to run him off etc hasn't helped either, people focus on the horror stories.

[ScottPaterson]

Great stance on this topic Oz. I think the lack of a unified grading system will always doom catch to the shadows. There is also a definite element of people scrambling to be the one and only source of catch which as you rightly say leads to bashing other people's abilities, teachings and methods.

[vicarious]

I'm very much in the category of congratulating anyone who steps foot into a combat sport. Even if it's not for them at least they gave it a shot!

[TheCCBoi]

I find it interesting, this was the same problem traditional JuJutsu suffered from in the 1800's. Everything was about winning and dominating your opponent - inside your school and outside. People were injured all the time from sparring or challenging other schools. When Judo came along, it offered a friendly and structured environment that was welcoming to newcomers - BJJ has continued this legacy and that's why Judo and BJJ have surpassed traditional JuJutsu - even though traditional JuJutsu is a more complete fighting system than either Judo or BJJ.

[Irrational_Pie]

Well said. Gatekeeping an extremely niche sport is the best way to kill it. It’s easy to be the best in the room if a person chases off everyone who wants to try it

[kingartifex]

I've travelled to numerous countries, and it is near impossible to find someone who teaches wrestling (be it sambo, catch, free style, greco roman etc.). If they do, its always a very hidden niche group with a very small pool of fighters. Bjj and judo to a lesser degree, on the other hand, are everwhere

[lewisb]

I think the trouble with catch as well is that my dad told me stories of where when he started training with Don Vines (duel code Welsh international rugby player turned catch/pro wrestler), you had to earn your stripes to train with him Don was legitimately trying to run people off my dad told me stories of don tying him up in knots (ironically I use those holds in BJJ now). Also with this "your not a real catch wrestler" I'm not my dad is but I'm not I see myself as a catch influenced BJJ practitioner.

[bobon]

I completely agree with the point raised, I think it is an important one. However I believe that there is _also_ a more fundamental reason why CACC _cannot_ be as successful as BJJ. While BJJ is a gentle art that you can do at any age and with any body type, CACC is objectively more brutal, more focused on take-downs and the pain part of submission. Asides the overwhelming similarities translating perfectly between the two, there are techniques of CACC _requiring_ a very athletic body type, while BJJ is focused mostly on techniques that a smaller and less athletic person can apply against a bigger person. CACC will always be slightly more niche.

[baoxidiaoyu]

Royce has said his most uncomfortable match was against wrestler Severn.

[andyedwards]

A fantastic point of view for life not just training. We should all be trying to help others climb higher in everything we do. .

[asa-punkatsouthvinland]

Have you ever done a vid comparing and contrasting catch wrestling with Brazilian jiu-jitsu? Talk about what the differences in strategy & technique. I don't remember if you have but if not that would be a great vid!

[kevinlobos]

You talk so passionately about catch wrestling that now I want to try it out some day.
Also right now I hate being south american, those fight team t shirts look lovely