The Grim Philosophy of KOTOR

Star Wars features a rich tapestry on conflict from spiritual and political angles, encompassing the practical and deeply personal motivations of the struggle between good and evil. In 2003, a series of Star Wars RPGs would make a brand new timeline set long before the events of the main movies, and help establish practical wording to describe the nature of the Force. The game makes a clear demarcation between the Light Side and the Dark Side, while acknowledging the spectrum of human experience and the shades of grey that encompass it. This video explains the deeply real philosophical impact of the Knights of the Old Republic series, and the ways in which it extrapolates on the kaleidoscope of societal norms, ethics, and morality.

[ossihurme]

These games are miles ahead of other Star Wars media.

[kylecurtis]

“Kids deserve good stories.” Yes! Absolutely. Thank you. It’s not just that they need good stories, it’s that they DESERVE them. There are not enough anymore. Please, recognize this mistake and move to fix it.

[kobus]

Definitely gonna give the games a try at some point, sounds like they got a lot to unpack for the player.

[NunyaBiznessss]

I've been replaying KOTOR 2 and binging all sorts of analyses the last week or so. Yours is by far my favorite.

[dreamingflurry]

Halt! The Jedi-Exile didn't lose their "spirituality" - nope, they cut themselves off because of the death screams (in the force) of all the people (including Jedi!) dying at Malachor (by their command no less!)

[galenmarek]

One of my favorite things about both games was the choices because there are some instances where the light side choice is the best option and others where the dark side choice is the most natural response to the scenario in question, kinda makes it hard to pick one side over the other. The stories for both were also really amazing and I wish we would of gotten KOTOR 3

[JonathonV]

I’m not sure if that was a homily or a master’s thesis I just listened to, but either way, fabulously done.

I love both games and learn so much from the discussions of them!

[piefrosty]

This is one of those pieces of media that helped me mature into an adult. Third favorite game of all time.

[ThorfinnSonofThors]

I love the comparisons you made to real-life ideological struggle. Really, I just love the overall gritty and complex nature of these games, along with the compelling narrative and characters. They are the reasons why the original KotOR is one of my favorite video game stories of all time (alongside The Last of Us Part 1 and Dante's Inferno).

Edit: wording

[toma.]

Kotor was still stands the test of time, over 20 years later its still a great game and still holds its own
I firmly believe had kotor2 not been rushed and the game fully developed kotor 2 wouldve been a masterpiece. It was still a fantastic game.

[dorrin]

The KOTOR games were the first Star Wars media that I remember giving the Sith an actual philosophy beyond "We're just evil!!"

[erikurizita]

Knights of the Old Republic defined Star Wars. It tooks Georges world and gave it a philosphical outlook as the force stood for. Kreia gives the final conclusion, while Revan shows the natural course a Jedi takes, and the end results of the order. Its a game series that rivals the six original movies in terms of world building.

[matthewjaniss]

KOTOR 2, Starwars used to be written by mature adults😢. God I miss how it really made you think about the nature of the force, the light and dark side, and really challenged the idea of simple good vs evil.

[Hirnknaker]

Boa the musig.... the music of that game. so great

[anbuinc]

At 38:50
You mention that the dark side is a perversion of the force and that is it akin to fire in that regard.

I agree that the dark side is a perversion of the force, though I'd argue that the light side is also a perversion of it too.

The force is in balance when neither of these dichotomies are the dominant ones.

Firstly, all living things are akin to fire, all life feeds off of another form of life in order to sustain itself; whether it's the plants and trees soaking up water and nutrients, (both are different forms of life) whether it's the animals who graze and eat naught but plants, (another form of life) whether it's predators who eat prey, (another form of life) the force brought all this into being, so that life may sustain itself, if life doesn't sustain itself, then it dies, just like fire does without fuel.

The light side of the force in it's extreme brings about stagnation by shying away from conflict, (trials of life itself) you must try, fail, learn in order to grow, none of us knew how to walk, we all had to learn.
The jedi in the prequels, refused to learn from their mistakes and stagnated to the point of no return.

The dark side and the light have their uses and their benefits, but their extremes are ultimately what leads them into ruin.

The force gave rise to Anakin to bring balance to the force, it also gave rise to Palpatine, now one does wonder why the force did that...

If the force is to be credited on the good that it does, it must also be credited on the bad too.

It is said that God created humanity in his own image, Humanity can be a bit of dick, so it means that God too has the capacity to be a dick if he so chooses, seeing as we're inheriters of it. Of course there's the rub, the existence of capability and the existence of choice.
So if the force gave rise to Palpatine, it most likely had a reason for it, whether or not we know it, whether or not we agree with it, is a matter of debate.

[MuchFlight]

my favorite star wars IP of all time, and its not even close

[EatScrabbleGoo]

Excellent video! thank you for capturing Nietzsche's ideas on the genealogy correctly lol
*INCOMING LONG POST: ALL ABOUT A CONSERVATIVE AND CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATION OF KOTOR 2*

I've always considered Nietzsche a right wing and somewhat conservative philosopher, given his veneration for the pre-socratic greeks. In this way, Nietzsche favors very life-affirming ideals when speaking of master and slave morality. In this way, his ideas are rooted in people and what is natural to man.

This coincides with the conservative perspective of Russell Kirk, who had an aversion to lofty abstractions and ideologues. For Kirk, a functioning society was one rooted in its own historical traditions and culture, but also with a religion of higher power that *permeated* all things, rather than cover or destroy humanity. To be guided by abstract principles divorced from man and society was detrimental. Many may even be moved to do anything to uphold those ideas, even evil deeds.

When I played KOTOR 2, I was reading Kirk at the time. And I saw the conservative element in it (as perceived through Nietzschean ideas of course). The Jedi adhered to their abstract code and were life denying. They do not have a monopoly on the Light side. The Sith also have their abstract code and will do anything to achieve power (life denying). We can't ignore that their codes have elements of truth to them, but in practice, we can see what their codes really mean.

In Star Wars terms, both factions deny life in favor of abstractions. One may first think this implies the true problem is Force vs. nature/the universe (Kreia believes this). But, I argue from a conservative and Christian perspective that the problem is that the Jedi and Sith do not treat the Force as something which fulfills nature, fulfills humanity, fulfills the universe. The Force does not destroy humanity & the universe (Darth Nihilius uses the Force to destroy and consume) (this is life denying as well). The Force does not merely cover and hide humanity and the universe (Darth Sion uses the Force to sustain his dead body/uses the Force as a substitute for his humanity) (also life denying). For the Jedi masters who died after Kreia separates them from the force, they too deny life; they in essence pit force against humanity. Couch Co-Op speaks of a wholistic view of Force and nature (32:10) which I think is exactly correct.

In comparison to the ideas of Force and its relationship to nature, the grace of God does not destroy human nature to make people holy, nor does it merely cover and hide people's fallen nature. It permeates and transforms man, redeeming him. To me, that is life-affirming (of course Neitzsche disagrees). That is the best way to view the Force in my opinion. If you want to learn more about a strong Christian rebuttal to Nietzsche using his own philosophical concepts, check out "Ressentiment" by Max Scheler.

In defiance of these life denying philosophies is The Exile. I think Chris Avalon writes KOTOR 2 such that the Exile has no connection to the Force, which can be taken as her rejecting her faith. In Star Wars, the force permeates everything, much like how the Christian God does. A revisionist POV or interpretation of KOTOR 2's Exile cutting herself off from the force could be that she only ceded the strong power of the Force even though the Force permeates all beings. She had with her the power of God and used it to destroy Malachor V (Fun fact: Malachor and Malak are based on the hebrew for "King" (Melek, Moloch, Malchus). She then submitted herself to her proper authorities, the Jedi Council (for the conservative, it makes sense she obeys her culture, tradition, and institution, even if it is flawed sadly. We did not see this from Malak and Revan, putting them in the iealogue category).

The Exile was that of a saint, so in tune with the Force, but ultimately abused it, given her human nature. Thus, she relinquished the Force, the power, because she was afraid of her consequences, the screaming, and was afraid of herself: man becoming god. When man tries to become God, he becomes either a beast or a demon (a fallen angel).

The Exile is redeemable though! Perhaps that revisionist POV is incorrect. Perhaps the Exile cut herself off from the Force in an act of apostasy (I think this is what Chris Avalon meant). Assuming this, we could view the Exile's separation as a "happy fault, " a term used for the dawn of original sin and the fall of man, for if Adam did not sin, God the Son would not have became man incarnate. The Exile failed by apostatizing (not from the Jedi beliefs but from the Light side, the trueness of the Force), but through this evil fault, the Force can bring out an even greater good: a way to follow the Light side where the Force informs nature and people are intimately connected, where true love, charity and sacrifice, reign supreme.

If you want to learn more about those ideas of the conservative mindset versus the abstract ideologue mindset, read The Conservative Mind by Russell Kirk. If you want to learn more about that Christian response to Nietzsche regarding whether or not Chrisitianity is a life-denying slave morailty, read Ressentiment by Max Scheler.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading!

[niiksaak]

7:34 Oh, I think I've read this in a THESIS somewhere.

[ASNSZero]

All I have to say is...

I really wish TOR had never elaborated on Revan. It and the Revan novel are easily the worst aspects of Drew's work. They should have just kept what happened to Revan vague - the early Revanist quests in TOR in Dromund Kaas are the route they should have gone - a bunch of wild theories that get proven wrong/contradict each other.

Then again, early TOR had a lot of problems outside of the character stories until after Shadow of Revan.

[SequentiallyCompact]

As a game, I couldn't stand KotoR 2, but as a story, it was great. It was just so buggy and sloppy when first released (I have an updated patched up version now that works really well.)

Although I think there were lazy plot tropes in the story, the underlying philosophy was top notch. Really digs deep down into the mythos of Star Wars and shows how much of what Lucas and the creators were motivated to make.