The Drydock - Episode 258

00:00:00 - Intro

00:00:45 - If the Japanese didn't run out of 12” guns and built Satsuma as a dreadnought, what terminology would be used for the all-big-gun battleships?

00:04:02 - If the Satsuma's were built as full on dreadnaughts, would it change anything in the grand scheme of things?

00:08:02 - Considering their location very close to the port and starboard sides of the hull, was the protection of wing primary turrets lower than those located along tthe centerline on dreadnought type battleships?

00:14:47 - If she was completed in time, what role would the Shinano have served? Would she have even made an impact?

00:19:35 - Worst carrier competition: Bearn, Graf Zeppelin, Shinano, and Aquila. Who “wins” in terms of being the least bad design and who is the worst design?

00:23:12 - What superstitions overcome the one against renaming a ship?

00:26:30 - Salvo systems is various navies?

00:31:46 - Could they have gotten HMS Lion into service before the end of the war?

00:37:37 - How much damage could Centre Force actually have done?

00:42:31 - Are there any WW2 U-boats that are still available to be looked at as museum pieces?

00:43:41 - Were ships on shakedown cruises really called into action?

00:49:57 - How did navies fit so many more people on ships than originally intended?

00:52:46 - Was there ever a sort of frankinship, a warship made up of various different parts from scrapped or destroyed ships?

00:55:02 - Stripes on destroyer funnels?

00:57:11 - Was depleted uranium ever a thing for battleship shells?

00:58:19 - Is the early WW1 micro-managing by the Admiralty excusable?

[bholdr----]

This makes my Sunday a good day, each week... It's like Church (which I also enjoy), but without all of the formality and non-naval preaching (re: preaching in church l: I suppose is kind of the point ..)

Cheers, Drach!

[kemarisite]

39:14 I am reminded of USS Meade engaging in gunnery exercises against the beached Japanese supply ships during the morning of November 15, 1942.

[johnnash]

The most egregious example of a military frankenship was the USN conversion of the battleship USS Oregon BB-3. She was an 1895 vintage museum pre-dreadnought moored in the Portland, Oregon waterfront from 1922-1942. The USN fooled the citizens of Oregon that donating her for the Pacific war effort was more honorable than keeping her intact; she was towed to Kalama, Washington and stripped down to her keel relegating her as an “Ammunition Barge.”

USS Oregon (the drydocked likeness that Drach uses in his Drydock episodes, ) was the “Coastal Battleship” that made the epic 14, 000 mile voyage from San Fransisco, down S.America, around the Straits of Magellan and up to the Caribbean Sea to engage the Spanish “fleet.” The USS Oregon’s voyage was the final impetus in the construction of the Panama Canal. Only pieces of her remain in Portland’s Waterfront Park.🙁

[taivaankumma]

The Finnish submarine Vesikko is probably not quite what people usually think of when they think of U-boats, but it was the prototype for the Type II boats and used by the Germans for some hush-hush training during the summers of 1933 and 1934 and it can be visited in Helsinki.

[Claymore]

Wonderful drydock Drach. I totally agree that Aquila was the best of the carriers featured - after all her design was sound and the Regia Marina had been looking to develop carriers since the early twenties and (although never having the money - there's a surprise!) had worked their way through the design process on several occasions. The Aquila's problems would only have begun when she entered service as there is some dispute as to whether the air group would have been controlled by the Regia Marina or the Regia Aeronautica. The Macchi 202 Silurante torpedo strike fighters would have been a very interesting proposition though.

[mhmt]

The guy who wrote “Leyte Gulf, ” Mark Stille, doesn’t think Kurita wouldn’t have had much to gain for breaking into the invasion beach anchorages. I tend to agree. According to Mr. Stille, three waves of invasion troops had already been landed, and the supply ships were, for the most part, empty. There were approximately: 3 command ships, 28 LSTs, and 20+ other freighters, etc. lingering to the north of the gulf. Had Kurita kept coming on, he may have done damage to these ships; perhaps sunk many, but then both the 7th fleet warships steaming north, and Halsey’s 3rd fleet steaming South would’ve caught him between. Task Force 38.1 was already on the way, and as it is only missed Kurita by a few hours. He (Kurita) was already dealing with something like 200 planes attacking him throughout the morning, but it’s certain far more—this time armed with anti-ship munitions—would have paid him far more unpleasant visits throughout the day. The Japanese had used up a significant portion of their ammunition, and while 7th fleet was similarly handicapped after its ambush of Southern Force, the mighty 3rd fleet (and especially our boy Ching Lee’s battleships) had plenty of shells.
Stille said that in a post-war interview, Admiral Kurita confided that he did not want to throw away the lives of his 15, 000 men for a bunch of ‘empty transports.’ In his book, Mark Stille neither condemns Kurita’s decision to disengage, nor Halsey’s actions for “taking the bait” of Ozawa’s carrier force to the north. He claims that it was Kinkaid’s responsibility to monitor the San Bernardino Strait, and that Halsey was operating on an unspoken directive by Nimitz to aggressively seek out the Japanese fleet (after Spruance’s reluctance to comprehensively defeat it in the Philippine Sea). What he does fault Halsey for (and I do agree with this), is for not bringing to bear his full might of naval air against Kurita when he had the chance. In either attack, only a couple hundred planes sortied out of the more than 1400 he had available. While they managed to sink the Musashi, a lack of coordination among the attackers left Kurita’s force mostly intact. I’m personally critical of Halsey for the typhoon debacles, but I can’t say I blame him for the “Bull’s Run” thing. First of all, the command structure for that operation was abysmal. Halsey answered to Nimitz; Oldendorf answered to MacAuthur; while Kinkaid was not authorized to communicate at all with 3rd fleet. Secondly, Halsey knew what kind of flak Spruance got for not chasing after the Japanese four months earlier. It was Halsey, and he was determined to destroy the Japanese fleet. At this stage of the war, the Japanese had changed their codes so that the Americans didn’t have the same advantage as they did for Midway or Coral Sea. The only reports of Japanese fleet movements came from Darter and Dace, when they spotted the Center Force. Ozawa’s carrier bait didn’t pop into view until late in the ballgame… and Halsey didn’t know it only had 100 planes. People look back on that battle (or rather, series of battles) with 20/20 hindsight, but for Kurita, through the smoke-screen laid by the American destroyers, the rain squalls over Taffy 3, from the bridge of his flagship it must’ve been quite difficult to see what was developing. He knew Nishimura was wiped out. All these planes were buzzing like angry bees. I think you even mentioned that up to this point the Japanese had no idea what escort carriers were. In hindsight, his destroyers did a terrible job screening, yet his cruisers managed to chase down Taffy 3’s carriers. If Kurita doesn’t recall those cruisers, and retire, probably all six escort carriers go down. If Halsey leaves a constituted Task Force 34 to guard the Strait, we get the scenario you mocked-up: Yamato v. a couple of Iowas and SoDaks. If Mitchner’s air groups coordinate better—or at least spread the love, and put more than one bomb on Yamato, instead of focusing on Musashi—maybe Kurita doesn’t turn around.
If my aunt had [testicles], she’d be my uncle! I love the channel. I’ve been studying World War 2 since I was very young (I’m 57 now). My mothers uncle Eddy was aboard USS Wasp during the war, and lived through the typhoon that folded her flight deck. Those veterans were my age then, and all of their stories impressed me. Even so, I learn so much from yourself, and a few of your other guests. Your knowledge of ship design, capabilities, and construction adds a whole other dimension to understanding that conflict, that even my uncle Eddy could never provide.
Thanks, Drach!

[seppiya]

A "Frankenship" of two separate classes was the Soviet destroyer Storozhevoy (Project 7U), which had its destroyed bow (including forward armament and bridge) replaced by that of an incomplete Ognevoy class destroyer (Project 30).

[Hendricus]

43:10 Plus when you visit U-995 in Laboe (different town at the mouth of the Kieler Förde where U-995 is) you can also visit the Naval Memorial on the other side of the road which not only has one of Prinz Eugen's screws (one of the few easily reachable artifacts from Hood's final battle) but also a bunch of ship models (and I mean a lot) in one of the buildings and other stuff there alongside the view from the main building since its a tall tower on a small costal hill. I advice to pick a day with good weather though to not get wet while having a look

[blackcorp]

No 1 Naval Channel on YouTube and in the World

[Alex-cwrz]

43:41 was Prince Of Wales on a shakedown cruise / something similiar at the Battle of the Denmark Strait, and her 3 hits on Bismarck did force the Bismarck to a abandon it's raiding mission and head back to port

[dougjb]

5:40 Well, at least _Satsuma_ put the fore funnel aft of the foremast / forward gunnery spotting platform.

[lexington]

1:44 that totally gave me Game of Thrones vibes. The first of her name 🙂.

[hmsverdun]

Nubian had her bow blown off and carried on merily sailing. So the precendent was set for the WW2 Tribals in advance then (for anyone asking look up HMS Eskimo).

[ghost]

"If you can survive Chicago"...great description of my former hometown.

[dannyelkins]

Bearn is still on of my favorite carriers😅, the emotional damage of bearn being so lambasted

[cnw]

Regarding frankenships, apparently the Soviet cruiser Molotov (a Kirov class) had its damaged stern replaced by a stern coming from an incomplete Chapayev-class cruiser.

[ph]

16:35 Alternatively Shinano gets spotted by aircraft and goes the way of Yamato and Musashi in being dog piled by Task Force 38/58.

[keithrosenberg]

U-505 is a marvelous display. You can pay a little extra for the inside tour. They also have the 4 rotor enigma in display along with torpedoes, periscope and other things. They also have some items from the Task Force that captured 505.

And they have the Apollo 8 capsule in the MSI as well.

[dougjb]

23:32

I think an argument could be made that Deutschland’s bad luck started when she was renamed to Lutzow, lending credence to the claim.

[stuartwald]

When it comes to a reason for renaming a warship, there is no better "teaching case" than in 1660 when the NASEBY sailed from England to the Dutch Republic to pick up a passenger, and suddenly the ship became the ROYAL CHARLES for the trip back and henceforth. Her luck thereafter would be both very good (Battles of Lowestoft and St. James' Day) and very, very bad (the Medway Raid).