Spain on the Edge - The Catalonia Question | Jacob Shapiro Interview

[tamasmarcuis]

Catalonia from it's creation by the Frankish Empire in the guise of the County of Barcelona. These counties of the Frankish or Holy Roman Empire singularly or in groups became the countries of Western Europe. All the little principalities of Germany were counties of the Empire till the Thirty Years War. When that war ended with the signing of the Treaty of Westphalia in 1645 the modern state was defined to see who had a right to be included in the treaty. By that definition Catalonia was a state then.
So from 801 till the siege of 1715. That created a permanence that will not evaporate however much the Castillian government in Madrid would like to believe. There is no Permanent Right of Conquest by which a shabby country run by unreformed Catholic clergy and medieval aristocracy, can seize a smaller neighbour and live off them indefinitely. Castille and it's people have to live in the real world and modernise their economy so they can pay their way.

Madrid has an economy where the property owning wealthy and aristocracy pay virtually no tax. They expect the use of the state's services and financial bailouts but refuse to pay for any of it. They want all their goods and products transported on taxpayer's roads and load on ships from taxpayer's port facilities. They want the protection of the police, courts and military. They want electricity and water supplies from taxpayer apparatus. They want the workforce healthy and educated and ready to employ with all the relevant training and skills. BUT THEY REFUSE TO PAY FOR ANY OF IT. The government of Spain just takes on more debt to make up the shortfall and expects the middle and working class to pay their share and the interest.

[roxannehuguet]

The 2006 Catalan statute which was voted on in Catalonia and approved by the Spanish congress was a legal and binding statute. Rajoy garnered 4 million anti Catalan signatures. He gave them to his friends at the Tribunal Constitutional who illegally redlined it. Rajoy got into power with the hate of Catalans. Meanwhile, the state has promised to return Catalan money in their budget and never do. The trains and airports that the Spanish state runs have problems. In fact there has been no spending in infrastructure by the state in Catalonia for 22 years. It’s the only region with toll roads too. 32 laws the Catalans have passed including, minimum wage, equality for men and women and energy paid for old poor people have been overruled by the Spanish state. Unity sounds great but when you are physically, financially, lied to and pverbally abused it is time for a divorce. Plus the fact that Catalonia has no power in the Spanish parliament because it is watered down by sixteen other autonomies. Really, why are Ceuta and Melia two other autonomies? That and the fact that fascism is legal, the PP should all be in jail with the Gürtel case, where 10 witnesses have died mysteriously, that the judge who put 10 Catalans in jail had to recuse herself from the Gürtel case because she is a PP member. Why is she using laws not in the constitution that are from Franco times? Why is the Spanish government stopping funding in Catalonia with the Catalan money they illegally control when they enacted 155 for 40 biomedical research labs, ten million euros in social spending nor allowing the excavation of mass graves to find loved ones shot by Franco? Rajoy is a corrupt, Franco loving, Catalan hater. Spain is a totalitarian regime. Catalans are progressive, peaceful and democratic. There is no way they can stay in this suffocating, violent, undemocratic and hateful environment. Catalans want and deserve dignity and the right to decide. By the way they all speak and use Spanish. More lies by the Spanish state to take over the Catalan schools just like Franco did. Next the state will take over the media. Today Spanish bishops blessed the Spanish state taking over the Catalan government, putting elected officials in prison for their ideas and declared independence as a sin. Franco lives!! Yesterday hundreds of fascists marched in Madrid honoring Franco’s anniversary of his death. Rajoy loves his followers. He can stay in power while he makes deals with the EU, the Spanish banks and robs the entire country blind. Don’t worry, he will blame the Catalans. He’s spent 600 billion euros so far occupying Catalonia. Unity? Franco style.

[Nachscrach]

In the last election the most voted party was (pro Spain) ciudadanos. Pro independence parties organize a coalition and together get more less than 50% votes, but more than half of deputies (rural areas get deputies easier). Are you starting this procedure under such circumstances?

[romdefensesecurity]

Regarding terrorism, well, Spanish security forces crushed down already a Catalonian terrorist group in 1978, Terra Lliure, although initiate with a manifest in a mass meeting at the Camp Nou stadium in Barcelona in 1981. The Spanish security forces cracked down as well ETA in Basque Country where again, though nationalist, the majority of the region in not secessionist. The problem in Catalonia is that the secessionist minority has been keeping politically hostage the conservative non-secessionist traditional ruling party, permitting school-books presenting a twisted history of Catalonia and Spain for a left-wing entire generation. One of the many mistakes by that conservative majority party is that the supporters are not happy with the course things are getting, derailing the Catalan economy. But also, presenting Spain like a poor country with Catalonia rich is quite inappropriate: Catalonia provided in 2016, some 18, 9% of Spanish GDP, but Madrid  18, 8% and Andalusia for instance in the south, 13, 4%, so that it is not a modern Catalonia Vs a poor Spain whatsoever...actually after spending Spanish funds for the illicit polls, the secessionists were asking the central government to pay for the Catalan pensions and social health expenditures ...

[MrCholani]

Hypocrisy of western people they support the referendum of Kosovo saying it's their people will and all should respect it despite the objection from Siberia and now they don't accept the separation of Catalonia because it's against the constitution of Spain. European union says we all should be united but when it comes to Catalonia they say Catalonia does not belong to the union a big lol.. hypocrisy overloaded.

[donaldclifford]

Sounds like Spain could become the next Yugoslavia.

[ned]

This guy entirely misses the point and the response regarding the attempted coup in 81. The Tejero group simply missed the good old days of Franco and wanted to turn back the clock. The response to the coup attempt had nothing to do with putting down unrest in Catalonia or any other region. Some people read history but still don't understand it, or actively misrepresent it to try to support their theories.

[jamesstuart]

Avoid making comparisons between the #US and continental Europe, Had they Roman Empire not collapsed in 410 AD a large part of Europe might have evolved into something like the #US, but even that would be an oversimplification. Language, religion, ethnic identity, a stream of invaders from the Caucasus and - at times - further afield; and, above all, created the mosaic of nation states that is Europe today, almost all of which were consolidated at one time or another not by consent, but by force of arms, as recently as the 1990s in the Balkans and currently in Ukraine and Turkey, if you see it as an aspiring member of the European “community”. Was a United States of Europe ever possible at any time since the Romans? Various attempts were made. European empires existed until 1919 in some regions. Napoleon tried. William II tried. Hitler tried. Stalin tried. All that ended in 1990 and the #EEC tried to step into the vacuum - driven by a minority of ideologues - to transform itself from an economic cartel into the foundation of a future federal government of most, but not all of Europe. Europe as a geographical concept, for that is all that it is, extends to the Urals and includes European Russia. A constellation of sovereign, independent states co-operating under the auspices of the UN, NATO; negotiating trade agreements not universal but tailored to the needs of individual countries, is an option. A centralised government, a single currency, a single market is not an option in a global economy. The rationale behind the European Union was conceived during the Cold War, when Eastern Europe was a “union” imposed by force, not consent, by Moscow, not Berlin or Brussels. E;vents have overtaken us. The rise of the AsiaPacific Rim nations like Japan, China, Korea, Singapore, Indonesia and India was not foreseen. The locus of the global economy has shifted away from Western Europe. No amount of empire building in Brussels can change that. The past is gone; the future is Asia, with North America and Australasia best placed to take advantage of this. In time the New Silk Road will bring Western Europe closer; as and when each nation state chooses. #Switzerland knows this already. The Swiss made the right choice; stay out of #Brussels - a waste of time, money needed elsewhere, and Human Resources; an exercise in vanity and futility to rival the Court of Versailles during the last days of Louis XVI.

[ricardo]

I am tired of the word "unpack" It is overused. Secondly, Mr. Shapiro appears to be pro-Catalan., He may be correct but many countries in Europe have large areas that have a different nationality. Belgium, Switzerland, Germany and Italy come to mind. Mr. Shapiro seems perturbed that the Spanish Constitution does not permit such a vote. Neither does the US Constitution. Does Mr. Shapiro think that is unjust ? Europe does not need more countries. I agree that Spain should try to win the hearts and minds of the Catalans. This is a Spanish affair and not our business. At this point only 40% of the population is for independence. That is woefully inadequate. If the vast majority of Catalans desire independence then that would be a different question. That really requires a super majority of 67% or more, At that point the Catalans need to gain support in the rest of Spain for plebiscite.

[MyMaitetxu]

Catalonia its as diferent from the rest of Spain as Andalusia is, they have the catalan but they also use spanish, sinds hundreds of years, catalans are historically bound to the rest of Spain but 40 % feel different, only, they aren´t. Diversity is part of the spanish identity, we have the bask, the gallicians, the andalucians, the islands etc....