Vessels of Wrath or Mercy

Romans 9:21-23 says, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory..."

RC Sproul, a notable Calvinist, interprets this to mean that God creates some people for salvation and the rest for damnation, but is that what the Apostle Paul really had in mind? Let's explore!

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[EmperrHrde]

If God deliberately creates people with the inability to obey him or come to him in any way shape or form, then there is no basis for condemnation.

[sheilasmith]

GOD created freewill. So how is claiming I accepted the offer of salvation, removing God's glory?
Do I claim credit for my green eyes? Or my ability to see with my green eyes?
God gets the glory for creating my freewill to choose I the responsibility for rejecting Him.

[robinq]

After that opening quote from Calvin, I don't know how any Christian who has actually read his bible, would not have rejected him right off the bat. Except that some were indoctrinated beforehand - is the only reason I can think of.

I have RC's book 'Chosen by God' where on page 38 he claims there is only Justice or Non-Justice with God whereby he puts Mercy on the non-justice side and draws 2 circles to put Justice in one and Mercy (aka 'good non-justice) and Injustice (bad non-justice) in the other. This bothered me immediately as he went on to try and explain his philosophy according to his Calvinist understanding. What he missed entirely is that God works His Mercy according to His Justice - not totally separate from it. Therefore his circles should have overlapped with Mercy in the overlapping section.

This was established way back in the Garden when God told Adam what would happen if he ate from the forbidden tree thereby establishing His Justice. But when Adam disobeyed he did receive the penalty for his sin but God in His mercy ALSO revealed to him the way of escape would be by sending Christ into the world so that his sins could be forgiven and he could be given eternal life by putting his hope in God's Son. This is Faith 101: Justice ->Mercy->Hope available to all men who believe on Christ without predestinating anyone to eternal hell.

[sheilasmith]

Calvinists are experts at taking something so obvious and straightforward and twisting it into something unrecognizable.
One has to really work at it, to reach calvinist conclusions.

[debbieelliott]

So appreciate you Leighton and all you do, you teach the truth so simply that even I can understand. This video has help tremendously! Thank you! 😊

[sheilasmith]

When one follows the branch of Calvinism back to its root, we discover Augustine.
And Augustine struggled with the existence of evil, not moral evil, but the natural earthly conditions like storms, earthquakes, famine. So in his search for answers to those occurances, he moved on to explain the occurances of human evil.
He came up with the WRONG he was a gnostic. He applied his gnostic view of God to conclude that humans have no freewill.

[ErictheCleric]

"First we may call this doctrine(Calvinism) a novelty, seeing that for the first four hundred years after christ there is no mention of it. The first foundations for it were in the writings of Augustine, who, in his warring against Pelagius, let fall some expressions which some have unhappily picked up to the establishment of this error."- Quaker Theologian Robert Barclay

[Invictuschristus]

God CANNOT be the author of his own unhappiness or anger.

[JStevensdk]

The vessels of wrath and mercy in Romans 9 is a direct reference to Jeremiah 18 and both refer to the two states of Israel not to gentiles nor reprobates.

Simple

[sweethometreasures]

Excellent overview of the context! It's all about Israel!

[chaddonal]

38:30 - 39:30. Leighton has a mic drop moment!

[icilahmb]

Leighton, you consistently prove what Gods Word says along side how Calvinist interpret scripture; while we who are not Calvinist are scratching our heads, I have coined this type of biblical reading, as the Calvinist Disclaimer. This Calvinist Disclaimer allows RC Sprouls, James White, John MacArthur, John Piper and their founders Augustine and Calvin to misinterpret scripture without any conviction of error. The Calvinist Disclaimers (CD), one God is Sovereign and two adding for, of and who are.. of the Elect, to every scripture in the bible to get its true meaning to establish their doctrine. As John 3:16 For God so loved the World CD of the elect..." 1 Tim 2:4 "Who desires all men (CD) of the elect, to be saved..." 2 Timothy 2:21, "Therefore if anyone cleanses himself (CD) who are of the elect, from the latter, he will be a vessel of honor.." I could go on but that is a major problem in Calvinist. Their Eisegesis of Gods Word of John 6:44, John 3:16 etcetera....

[undergroundpublishing]

Its absurd that Calvinists argue that God gives men over to sin in order to punish them when Romans 11 says clearly that God gives ALL men over to sin in order that he may have mercy on them ALL.

Mercy is the epitome of Agape-gype love, and is the nexus where Justice and Love meet, requiring the sacrifice of the one who is just and loving in order to offer love without the sacrifice of Justice, and Justice without the sacrifice of love. Gods "lovingkindness" or "mercy" is the epitome of his character, and can only be revealed within the context of sin, and can justly be revealed that he ordained--(that is 'allowed') sin--and then ordained--(that is 'purposed') for the universal fall of mankind through that sin, and then ordained--(that is 'purposed') to, at great cost to himself, make a way for universal mercy as the conclusion of that universal fall.

There is nothing complicated about what is going on here if you allow God to speak for himself as to his primary motives, character, and ordained purposes. Calvinists simply do not know the God of the Scriptures, and so, they cannot understand what the Scriptures are saying. They are carnally minded, plain and simple.

[PastorErickMiller]

This very argument here. Vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy? Paul used it as a hypothetical. It was never meant for this type of nonsense in Calvinism

[mikaelarkanghel]

Hey @ChristianRebel i read your chat about your thinking that you are always ignored.. please don't be discouraged! ..think about how hard it is to do these live streams for just one man with no assistant ( none that i see for the host here ) or no production crew.. Discussing difficult subjects in depth whilst attending to a live chat that flows fast? People just can't do it perfectly or to everyone's satisfaction..
Be patient.. God bless

[bobbyadkins]

Everyone is a vessel of wrath until or unless they get saved. Then they become a vessel of mercy. Jeremiah 17:6-10 is very helpful in understanding Romans 9-21-23.

[geraldpolmateer]

I remember hearing MacArthur say his pea brain could not understand it. It is quite easy to understand when the clear teaching of scripture comes before a man's theology. It is like a man who is a farmer and he decides what pasture to put his cattle in. However the cattle choose to eat where they wish within the confines of the pasture they are placed in. Apparently Calvinists think the commands in scripture are not for someone to choose. I wonder they would place the golden calf? God's sovereignty. God is his sovereignty created man with the ability to choose.

[meanman]

Calvinist don’t seem to believe or acknowledge it’s even a possibility that God might wish for his creation (man in this context) to be given the real opportunity to choose wither to accept or to reject Him.

Which is strange indeed to me, like you’re presuming something, for which there’s a great deal of literary evidence in the scriptures that disagree with this presumption, and that being so, in context and hermeneutically consistent, you know not ignoring or arguments for the hermeneutics to avoid punching holes in ones own theological understandings.

I by the way fell into Calvinism hard, and searched it out, when I came to what I call the final conclusion, I saw that Calvinism paints God as a monster, which is ultimately why I rejected the view and understanding knowing that he most definitely is not.

It’s also interesting to note commonly how cold and mean Calvinist usually be, and then some scripture like 1 Corinthians 13.

Edit p.s. had it not occurred to them that love, real love requires choice?

[sheilasmith]

God did determine a plan and a system. Unrefutable.
But God did not create a plan or system of some saved and some damned.
If Calvin was correct, what happened in Eden, could not have happened, unless the claim is that God determined Adam and Eve to disobey.
If true, Calvin must explain how Adam and Eve obeyed God, BEFORE Adam and Eve disobeyed.
If Calvin claims that the nature of Adam and Eve and all the decendants was changed AFTER the fall, then Calvin must explain the choices of Cain and Able.
A calvinist would have to argue that the nature of Abel was created by God radically different than Cain's nature. Evidence?
Looking at human behavior pre and post fall, where is there a difference?
Adam and Eve had freewill.
Cain and Abel had freewill.

[kitsywedekind]

Have I ever mentioned how much I like your opening music? Very exciting lead in 😊