#282 - Do You Really Have a Self?: A Conversation with Jay Garfield (Episode #282)

In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Jay Garfield about the illusion of the self. They discuss the default sense of subjectivity, the difference between absolute and conventional truth, interdependence, free will, subject-object duality, emptiness, the “mind-only” school of Buddhism, scientific realism and experiential anti-realism, and other topics.

Garfield’s research addresses topics in cognitive science, modern Indian philosophy, ethics, epistemology, logic, the Scottish enlightenment, and Buddhist philosophy—particularly Indo-Tibetan Madhyamaka and Yogācāra. He is the author or editor of over 30 books and nearly 200 articles, chapters, and reviews.


Released: May 23, 2022

[mark_lhr]

Jay Garfield is perhaps the most clued up philosopher currently alive. It’s a tough pill to swallow, what he says, but it’s mighty liberating.

[jennyboeger]

Wow - this one definitely makes the list of favorite episodes. Both of you brilliantly match and uphold each other’s obligation to rigorous, honest transmission of the kind of ideas that people seldom discuss but yet, that hold the potential for such transformative power in our lives. Thank you for sharing!

[everythingsawesome]

Damn, Jay Garfield! He's great. I took a class on Buddhist philosophy with him years ago. Can't wait to listen. So glad he and Sam connected.

[dge--runner]

One of the best discussions I've heard from this podcast (it's my favorite topic). I can tell Sam really enjoyed it as well. Just brilliant.

[furleysbrain]

notes I made before I had to stop and make dinner:
We exist as persons, rather than ‘selves’

An illusion is something that exists in one way, but APPEARS in another way.
A mirage exists as a refraction of light - but appears as a body of water.

A person exists as a person, but appears as a self.

We think we are the ‘me’ that owns our body.
The agent that acts upon the world, but isn’t quiet in the world.
We think we own our minds and bodies.

Imagine somebody who’s body you’d like to have. For a short or long time.
The moment you’ve formed that desire - you’ve told yourself you’re not your body, that you HAVE your body, and that in principle could have another body.
Or that you could have somebodies mind for a while.
We regard ourselves to ‘have’ a mind.

The thing we think of behind our experience.
The thing that’s always subject and never object.
That’s pure agent that acts upon the world.
That is the illusion of self.
Yet it’s the way we exist.

We believe we are a passenger in the body -
appropriating the body from a position of subjectivity.
Specifically in the head. Behind the eyes.
A singular area of attention, free will, consciousness, mind, inner-monologue.
The sense that you’re behind your eyes as a subject, is our ‘i’ or ‘me’.

When you experience self consciousness. Talking in front of a crowd perhaps.
Or when you lock eye contact with another person in a certain context.
You feel as if there’s an inner identity being exposed. Your own face becomes a kind of mask.
When it blushes it’s misbehaving and telling. Against your will.
Feeling at war with your experience.
At this point your body is in the reality of the world - your mind is not.

Part of the self illusion is that part of our experience happens inside a space, that’s separate to the outer space-time reality. Somehow physical space and time is all exterior to us, but we have an inner life in an inner space. It removes us from consciousness and the world, and reveals the world to be a separate arena in which we can act, but to which we don’t belong.

The moment we stop consciously recognizing this - we slip perfectly back into the illusion. A default.

The significance?

There is some duty to us as humans to understand our own experience.

Moral: The self illusion acts as a foundation of egoism, and moral attitudes: blame, anger.
The self illusion actually inhibits our relationships. Self consciousness.
It is that antithesis of flow-state, the mind state most transcendent of ego.
It’s all the psychological suffering of self.

[DirtyPhlegm]

Your guest speaks exceptionally well! I was pleased to hear you both speak

[radscorpion]

Glad to see you aren't as heavily invested in twitter as other people, like Jordan Peterson. He's kind of going crazy :P. Staying away from that site and having informed discussions with other academics is so much more productive! :)

[healthdoc]

The goal is to have a “centered self without being self-centered”. The difference is the direction of flow. A centered self is balanced and emergent, adding their unique talents and energy to life. The pejorative term self-centered implies a self that takes energy from their environment, selfishly adding nothing of themselves.

[zaccoopah]

This is one of the better ones you've ever done, Sam.

[scrungobepis]

So stoked to see Jay on this podcast. Basically wrote my whole dissertation on that guy !

[jamiewolfzen]

Hey it's Jay Garfield! Loved his TTC lecture series, Meaning of Life.

[watcher]

I am currently majoring in philosophy at a major private University. The semester I spent reading the Buddhist philosophy was excellent and really opened my eyes to the different perspectives on meta-physics that people use

[C.D.J.Burton]

I was thinking...

We (as information processors) process a disproportionate amount more sensory input within a certain radius, and there's the inevitability of touching and interacting with ourselves to cause feedback loops. It seems as if our pleasure reward/defence system is behind our sense of "want", and that "I" is to clarify which neural receptors exactly want feeding. So why do certain molecules feel nice or bad to us?

In cases of Alzheimer's or "split-brain" patients to name a couple, it's been well demonstrated how paradoxical the brain can behave, showing how thoughts are/can be retrieved only by asking the right questions. I've noticed how despite not having been diagnosed with any memory-related condition, I have noticed how occasionally I have needed to be asked a question in a certain way for me to acknowledge a phrase/word i've always known. It leads me to believe that we may all be on the spectrum in a way, and that what feels like a a cloud of consciousness which reports back to the same central governing body, might instead be millions of individual agents working autonomously who [as one of many parallel chains of command] each get the opportunity to act as the the main guy (mouth, arms etc).

[buggybored]

The difficult part of this is reminding myself that free will is an illusion. When I listen to Sam, I can in that moment forgive even the worst mass murderer, only to wanting to harm the person who designed soap dispencers who aim straight forward instead of down a moment later.

[joedavis]

Good stuff. Thank you.... in 1951, when I was 10, in the fourth grade in Roxbury Kansas, and they were doing their best to break me, I decided to adhere to the Nuremberg code for the rest of my life... " it is the moral obligation of every human being to reject immoral orders. "... this solemn oath allowed me to survive with my character somewhat intact.

[stephenbyrneireland]

Very interesting conversation as always. Cheers, Sam.

[awarenesszen]

There's a recent video by Ajarn Amaro entitled 'Who Am I?' that explores the idea of the self and how it can be tracked back to nothingness. Much simpler and practical for anyone looking for a hands on approach.

Not to say that this video wasn't very interesting also. I really enjoyed the intelligent back and forth.

[mongoharry]

I've heard someone express a point of view that our mind comes FROM our body: As our brains grow and develop, its neurons arrange themselves in a manner dependant on the input they receive from the body, which is furthermore dependant on the body's interactions with the environment. So our brain and its content are inextricably linked to and controlled by the environment.

[irrelevant]

The self is not an illusion. An illusion doesn't mean that something does not exist but rather an illusion is something which doesn't appear to be what it is. When you use the word "illusion", you're defining something in relation to that thing which is considered to be real.

For example, on a hot summer's day, the road at a distance looks like there's water on it since it appears wet. Getting closer to the road, you then realize that the wetness you saw before was a mirage or an illusion. Since you're calling the wetness you saw before an illusion, then it's an illusion of what? Well, it's an illusion of water where water is considered to be a real thing and what you saw before was not real, thus an illusion.

To call the self an illusion, then what in relation to the self is it an illusion of?

So the self is really not an illusion but rather the self does not exist.

[jdarst]

One of your top 10 talks for sure even though I have to look up the meaning of some words. Thanks.