Vivek Ramaswamy Has a Different Vision for Trumpism From JD Vance

Vivek Ramaswamy burst onto the national scene last year as a wild card candidate for the Republican presidential nomination. Here was a relatively unknown biotech executive with no political experience, pitching himself as someone who could carry on Donald Trump’s movement. Trump ultimately won that primary contest handily, but Ramaswamy was a breakout star. There was even chatter that he might be Trump’s V.P. pick.

Trump, of course, ended up choosing JD Vance — Ramaswamy’s friend and former classmate — who has a very different vision for the future of Trumpism. But Ramaswamy believes the future of the Trump movement is still up for grabs and is fighting hard for his camp to win out over the one that Vance represents, including in his new book, “Truths: The Future of America First.”

In this conversation, we discuss the two competing visions that Ramaswamy sees as lurking beneath the surface of Trumpism, what he calls “national protectionist” and “national libertarian,” whether his vision is really so different from Paul Ryan-style conservativism, why he thinks these debates within the Republican Party are really deep down about identity and what it means to be an American.

0:00 Intro
1:52 Defining America First
20:24 Immigration
33:22 National identity
39:00 Administrative state
1:02:31 Industrial policy
1:09:28 Blood and soil nationalism
1:20:05 Book recommendations

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

[shaunarmstrong]

Regardless of whether you agree with Vivek or not, how often do you see aspiring political leaders operating at this intellectual level?

[AgentBitcoin]

As a lifelong democrat voter, I have to admit Vivek comes off as a refreshingly thoughtful and principled voice among the conservative movement, and seems to be driven by genuine and honest intentions to help shape the future of the country for the better. I appreciate that he engages in good-faith with people and communities that disagree with him in order to promote respectful and nuanced conversations that frankly aren't happening enough. I would like to see more content like this.

[SyringeSem]

Imagine if all presidential candidates were capable of discussions like this.

[charlescurtis]

Referring to illegal immigration as penetration without “consent” is genius

[an-opinion]

Vivek is insanely intelligent, articulate and grounded. If he ever finds success, it’ll will be his own and no one gave him a “opportunity” like Vance/Kamala/Biden. He represents us in our more vulnerable situations. Hopefully we succeed.

[dumpsterlures]

Vivek is more "American" than I am... and I'm a white guy from Indiana lol.
He is everything America should want as a president.
We Americans need to look at these candidates like they're applying for a job....and you are in charge of hiring them to run your business (U.S.A.).
Imagine out of the all the people "applying" for prez in 2024, you didn't hire

I really hope I get to vote for him in 2028.

[ravishingravi]

Partisan comments here don't do justice to what we witnessed here. Respectful and rigorous testing of ideas with two people who have deeply read and thought their world view. This is not a left vs right. This was a search to find the answers "together" while not being wholly onboard. Unfortunately this kind of discussion is not catering mass of zombies engaged in tribalism and virtue signalling.

I really appreciate that we see some quality discourse such as this that doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator

[EdgeLoopGaming]

Vivek is brilliant, and it was interesting to see him challenged here. I think he did a great job defending his views, and Ezra did a great job challenging him.

[PetePineda]

Wow. Such a great interview. I’m so glad I saw it. The back and forth. Probing and answering. All respectful. We need more of that

[jigarp]

The fact that this video has less than 3k likes at 10 day mark proves that most people are not interested in intellectual conversation but just memes and 5 seconds clips.

[uttscharlesbagley]

I have never voted for a Republican in my 76 years but I can really relate to Vivek: he is everything that Trump is not: personable, self made businessman, brilliant thoughtful deep thinking and strong personal values.

[lukecresante]

I think Ezra is helping get the most out of Vivek here. Vivek is fantastic on his own but this is the sort of contrast I have not heard from him yet.

[miguelsramon]

Here are my two cents as an independent, Vivek is too good and superior to be somone's running mate, i have studied all the conservative leaders to today and nobody stacks up to Vivek Ramaswamy, there are some good ones including Vance but they are good in regular and ordinary way, whereas Vivek is good in an insanely extraordinary way, He is simply a super gifted and special breed of intelligence, I would suggest conservatives to push him as the Nominee in 2028, dont make this a missed opportunity

[ace]

It seems to me that the majority of MAGA is not sold on Vivek's idea that American identity is about adherence to ideals and not heritage, race or religion. And when confronted with this, as in the instance with Coulter, he rationalizes her obvious bigotry. I like Vivek's intellectual approach to politics but this is some classic Greek tragedy stuff. If he ever steps a foot wrong, MAGA will not give him the benefit of the doubt.

[gopalramanathan]

Easily one of most absorbing and brilliant conversations. Vivek is bound to impact America historically.

[luvlivefoods]

Can u imagine Ezra having this discussion with Kamala Harris?

[IndoManiac]

Vivek is vastly superior to both JD Vance and Trump

[tinh_lai_ivietnam]

Even Democrat has to respect Vivek Ramaswamy. He comes very straight forward and 100% for the future of The USA. I am grateful to be alive at this time of the history of The USA. Politician likes Vivek Ramaswamy is rare for century. The USA needs to put aside the differences to promote a candidate for the benefit of the country. Vivek Ramaswamy has a pure heart. American needs to push hi to the front line for the big job next term. I am sure even Democrat has to love him some way.

[ThatGuyInACU]

It is very inteteresting coming back to this conversation now and noticing the strong opinions Vivek espouses that got him removed from Trump's team. Him stating outright that tariffs are not really going to be the US policy going forward but are just a bargaining chip was enough by itself. You cannot disaggree with Trump in any way or you are ousted.

[ottofrinta]

I've been following Vivek for some time and the tragic thing is this:

This man is everything that the Republican party should be, but is not. In sense of following the original ideology of the founding fathers this brown guy with Indian roots is more American than almost any American. He is an intellectual, a polyglot, jsut liek they were, but those days are long and irreversibly gone. The more popular, populist, simplistic messaging will win.