Does the Subaru Lineartronic CVT (transmission) deserve all this Hate?

Does the Subaru CVT (continuously variable transmission) get more hate than it deserves?

The results may surprise you!

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[JonDZ_Adventuring]

2 of you have pointed it out, and I wanted to clear up the confusion. At around the 8 minute mark I use a graphic from Subaru Canada that talks about “torque converter lock up”. I meant to refer to “lock up” in a sense where the torq converter doesn’t stall. My mistake was using the graphic and referring to what was said on Subaru Canada’s website. What would be a better term for what many of try to describe? Speed stall? Low stall? Expert feedback would be appreciated 😃

[darianlow]

I have a 2022 Forester wilderness. I do not go off roading for sport but more so to access trails in the backcountry in British Columbia, Canada. The logging roads here are quite rough, steep, with lots of cross ditches. I must say that I'm extremely happy with it's performance and probably have not even come close to pushing it to the limit. I find myself in areas with a lot of 4runners and larger 4x4 trucks. I'm happy.. but that said I'm not trying to drive over boulder 😂

[anthonyjulson]

I haven't gone off road in my Subaru yet. My experience with the Subaru cvt isn't bad, i really don't like the fake shifts.

[jordanbryant]

I appreciate everything you say about not starting motion on a hill. I have lived in one of the rock crawling capitols of the world my whole life, and even with automatic Trans buggies, a complete stop has nothing to offer in terms of conquering obstacles. Identify the best line for your vehicle, and just keep moving with MINIMUM FORCE NECESSARY is how I was taught.

Learning to drive offroad on manual transmission vehicles is probably the best tool any offroader can have in their belt. It teaches that discernment of how much juice is needed real quick. If you're scared to break, or you really want to crawl, you're either on the wrong trail or in the wrong rig 🫡

[Databyter]

Wow, really nice video with a lot of information, and real trail experience and data. We need more videos in the space like this.

There is a lot going on here. Some of it is crawl ratio, some of it is the widely varyinng CVT Torque Converter stall values (and lockup behavior), Some is the brain of the ECU preventing that Torque converter from overheating when it senses it is being pushed too hard or approaching its stall values, and some of it, as I have made many posts about, is the misunderstood and relatively unspoken torque loss that is inherent in the AWD torque vertoring systems because as soon as you go on something hard or steep, the moment you start to lose traction, you are fighting to some extent against your brakins system, which moves torque around, but also results in torque loss.. Usually it is all 4 of these occurring at once that creates a full stall.

I hadn't even considered the torque converter lock up specs. I assumed that the lineartronic CVT would be able to take advantage of the evolution of the stanndard Transmission upgrades thru the years, which have made it more likely that you will be locked, even at low speeds, while under startup loads. This is because it helped MPG, and was just more efficient and less hot.

I guess they have their reasons, but the lockup speed is fairly slow for hard obstacles which means that we are using all fluid pressure, , which is fine, but hot, and not sustainable, which is why they have all those nanny smart lockouts so you don't burn up. I want a BURN button.

That being said, as I mentioned in my other post on your page the other day, regarding torque vectoring losses and CVT, it is important to learn how to drive your vehicle. If you drive this like it is a Kia Metro, it is not going to work. Use your manual mode and paddle shifters offroad Just remember you are in manual or you may have exessive RPM.s But you can have higher RPM's which may help the converter lockup, and CERTAINLY help ward against this cars inherant desire to upshift too soon the moment you back off the throttle. This is great in town and saves you gas. Offroad, it creates a situation where you are constantly upshifing and downshifting. Keep it in 1st gear over obstacles. Also keep in mind, that when up against a hard obstacle, midhill, or the like, you may FLOOR it and nothing will happen, but keep trying for at least 3 seconds, because the torque vectoring system may just be considering the situation. In my car, I was giving up too easy. When I learned to give it an extra few seconds, I was rewarded by a Rocket launch jump, which frankly is a whole other problem, but it will MOVE you off an obstacle. This may be unique to my Outback Wilderness. It seems stalled, but when I keep it working a second or so longer, it just figures well, none of this other crap worked, let me send the beans. And honestly you don't WANT the beans, you just want controllable movement, but with experience, you can moderate the beans, and it actually works. This is about knowing your rig.

Nice writeup and data, I can't imagine the work that went into this video, but please everyone give this a like for the effort. All I can say is that it would be nice to have a NANNY OFF button in the case of the brain trying to save the car. Yeah, people would destroy their rigs. But people that knew what they were doing could get past that hard 5 feet in some cases, and get on with their day.

Personally I like the CVT in my modern Subaru. It's the most modern and toughest made, and I know that the CVT is not what causes the "pauses" in my rig, and I know how to avoid the pauses MOST of the time because I know my rig. Granted I haven't done anything SUPER hard, but I've done some pretty difficult stuff where I forced the car to basically stall, and got past those points with various methods. My Outback Wilderness has plenty of power, and we can all concede that the number ONE problem is lack of a low range in many of our AWD rigs. Everything else is just comparing how much less or more that sucks, given certain conditions, driving styles, knowledge, settings, modifications, etc.

Databyter

[Necromancer]

I have a lifted 2021 crosstrek sport and my friends refer to it as the “swiss army knife of cars” very impressed what this little cross over can do with the CVT. And Xmode abilities make it even better

[pavementsailor]

This is funny as I haul Subarus. Ive never had an issue with any Subaru climbing an inclined ramp from a dead stop. They are my favorite brand to load and I own a 16 Forester. My driveway is pretty steep and have never had an issue. This is all news to me.

[bmc_rc]

Thanks for the great video, this was super informative! I have a 2010 OB with 2.5 liter engine, the CVT hasn't given me any issues so far and I've done some pretty rough roads with some steep hills.(just started doing off roading with it in the last couple months) I just think you learn how to drive it and get momentum when going up steep obstacles.

[bvan]

Fun video and very informative. I had the opportunity to drive Imogene pass this summer in my stock 4Runner SR5. I remember that rock that you were trying to climb up. I pulled right up to it, stopped, realized I had clearance and went right up it. As an inexperienced off roader, Imogene was a hoot and I was super happy with my stock 2010 4Runner with 175, 000 miles and impressed with just how capable it was.

[DavidDLee]

The torque converter should not lock up at low speeds to provide its intended function: to increase the wheel torque when the wheels barely spin, while making the engine RPM rise to produce more torque.
In higher speeds, it locks up to provide better fuel economy.
The stall mid climb has to do with 2 things:
1. Anti wheel slip prevention. To test if this is the reason, "Deep snow and mud" mode can be used.
2. CVT slip prevention. Subaru limits the engine torque to prevent damage to the CVT, especially starting from a dead stop.

[palerider]

Had a 2017 Forester shoed with Geolanders and did experience the seeming power loss in deep sand going up a switch back as I had to pull to the inner side of the curve to allow a descending vehicle to pass. It just wouldn’t spin the tires and, as I was told, shut down the power to prevent from cooking the CVT. The solution was to sit a few minutes, let things cool down and pump the gas pedal… let off when power began to bog and then get right back into it. I had other “close calls” on steep trails in AZ but was never left where I could make on my own power. Well the Forester is gone and I now have a 2022 Outback Wilderness that fortunately someone already fitted with a full Primitive Racing skid plate package. No it’s not going a be a Rock Crawler but should take me most anywhere I want to go with relative ease. Thank from a new subscriber.

[DCsProductions]

CVTs will be the best! Once we are able to get reliability down... The ability to stay in optimal RPM range for either performance or fuel economy makes it very useful in normal day driving.

[patrickdubois]

I own a FXT 2014 with a lot of miles 200K and i replace it with a Forester Wilderness 2023, i don't know the crawl ratio but the differential ratio difference (3, 73 vs 4, 11) are a very huge upgrade to climb hill and on acceleration. After few good offroad review i decided to continue with Subaru. The FA20DIT and 3, 6R has the same transmission and same problem. When the transmission fail the main problem is the selenoid inside CVT loose ability to apply enough pressure to work properly.

[nme]

You make a lot of excellent points here. I think the one time we tried doing some moderate off-road in a CVT equipped 2016 Forester here in Jamaica the biggest limitation for us was throttle control/response.

The hills were not super steep and power loss due to altitude wasn't much of an issue since we didn't go over 1000m or 3200ft. What was extremely hard was in the mud you trying to accelerate over an obstacle or get going in slippery circumstances and you put some throttle in, and then not much happens, and then suddenly wheelspin etc. The TRAC control will then cut power, or if you run with it off, things get a little hairy and it's hard to maintain lines.

It was just extremely hard to modulate uphill. Not very linear despite the name lol.

On the other hand coming back down the same muddy slope X mode saved our skins. There was no way we could do that and keep it on the trail by engine / wheel braking manually. The electronics managed our speed all the way back down

[SuperRoverboy]

I have a Nissan X-trail cvt. And while i am terrified of snapping the xvt chain off road, it doesn't stop me. It does, however, force me to be gentle with the vehicle and transmission. Therefore, im more likely to be able to drive home afterwards.

[El_Dusty_]

Having driven a lifted 3.6 Outback Limited off-road a number of times I am very happy I choose a 4x4 with low range. The driving style required by the CVT did not feel safe. I could see how this could get people into trouble off-road especially for less experienced drivers. There is correct tool for each job and any CVT in moderate off-roading is like painting a wall with a toothbrush ✌️

[thomasuzarski]

My outback got stuck on a rock 3 times because of cvt. It was a great situation to try my new winch.

[OutdoorMemories]

I know why that last Forester could climb mid hill! I have several videos about it's capability 😁

[MatthewHeiskell]

I think the most interesting comparison is between my Forester and Outback. My Forester made it first try. His Outback never made it up. My crawl ratio is 4.5% better but he has 40% more horsepower and torque! Crawl ratio is more important than horsepower and torque. I feel bad for everyone who bought an Outback Wilderness because it has a crawl ratio of 14.3 . . . . not nearly as good as the Forester Wilderness and Crosstrek Wilderenss that have a crawl ratios of 16.7

[ShiftinAt]

Agree with everything you said in the video. One thing I think is Subaru purposely programming the torque converter to stall in their HT (high torque?) transmission in their turbo models is to reduce the chance of overheating the CVT due to all the power of the turbo engine. Imagine 250+ lb ft of torque at 2000 rpms vs maybe 100 lb ft torque in their 2.5 NA models at the same engine speed. They dont need to limit the TR580 because it isnt enough power to produce much heat at low RPMs thus allowing the 2.5 models to clear the obstacles without stalling. Couple that along with the fact that oh I dont know CVTs suck! Lol

Btw, I met that SJ Forester driver with his 2 dogs about a year ago when we went up that gnarly trail 😉