Two-State Solution Debate | Yiftah Curiel | Opposition

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The Motion: This House Believes a Two-State Solution in the Middle East is Unattainable.

Yiftah Curiel closes the case for the Opposition, as the eighth speaker of eight in the debate.

The motion was defeated.

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[demosgazetas]

Levy is not demonising Israel, he is a true patriot that actually cares about all human life… all humans are equal

[NikoHL]

This guy completely misunderstood Levy's argument. It's about equal human rights, which is not possible in Apartheid Israel. Palestinians are not allowed to leave Palestine without Israeli permission?!! How crazy is that.. Its a prison for Palestinians

[against]

Levy's argument wasn't about Israel laying down its arms and there would magically be peace, but about treating everyone equally. Levy also realizes a state which is separate but equal is inherently unequal and a two state solution is like a house divided against itself and will not last.

[brianbozo]

Were Palestinians given visas and the means to travel to Oxford to make representations on their behalf. ? Surely if Oxford insisted on Palestinian representation for a discussion on a 2 state solution it would just happen. Otherwise, it even makes Oxford appear biased in favour of Israel.

[FYI-FU]

He dismissed the illegal settlements like it's absolutely nothing. DAMN

[mangotango]

Gideon Levy was not demonising. He was simply saying the truth and he has been consistent for 40 years!

[sammosaurusrex]

4:44

Let's talk about these withdrawals in detail. Starting with Sinai:
Settlements dismantled in Sinai: 18
Settlers withdrawn from Sinai: Around 6, 000.

Upon the day of the withdrawal, 1, 200 settlers barricaded themselves inside buildings in the largest settlement of Yamit, threatening to kill the soldiers sent to evict them, or themselves. This resistance was more performative than serious, and the soldiers peacefully removed them without bloodshed.

That day, Defense Minister (and future Prime Minister) Ariel Sharon said: "In Sinai, in Yamit, we have reached the limits of our concessions. We turn to strengthening our security, to our development in every sphere. We shall turn to increasing and consolidating our settlements on the Golan Heights, in Judea, Samaria [Note: Judea and Samaria are Israeli names for the West Bank], and the Gaza district--settlements that are an integral part to our security, settlements that are a true basis for political plans--all in the framework of the government's avowed policy." Additionally, he said: "We have done the UNIMAGINABLE."

Now, let's talk about the Gaza withdrawal:
Settlements dismantled in Gaza: 21
Settlers withdrawn from Gaza: Around 9, 000

Once again, there was drama. Media coverage in the run up to the evacuations emphasized the probability of violence, the great threat that the evacuations posed. And, once again, there was performative resistance. IDF arrived with trucks, bulldozers, and riot gear, settlers threw rocks and vegetables at them. Children marched out of their homes with their hands up wearing Stars of David, invoking images of the Holocaust (incensing the Israeli public, who thought such unserious treatment of the Holocaust was atrocious). Once again, the resistance was primarily for show, and there was no actual fighting, no bloodshed.

Once again, the great national trauma of withdrawal was framed by now Prime Minister Sharon as a necessity -- because to annex Gaza would be the demise of Israel demographically: "It is no secret that, like many others, I had believed and hoped we could forever hold onto Netzarim and Kfar Darom. But the changing reality, in the country, in the region, and in the world, required of me a reassessment, and change of positions. We cannot hold on to Gaza forever. More than a million Palestinians live there and double their number with each generation." To the evacuating settlers, he said: "Residents of Gaza, today we end a glorious chapter in Israeli history, a central episode in your lives as pioneers, as realisers of the dream of those who bore the security and settlement burden for all of us. Your pain and your tears are an inextricable part of the history of our country."

So, that is how those evacuations went. They were unpopular, and played as painful, unwilling concessions, generous gifts from Israel to the Egyptians and to the Gazans, at an enormous cost. "UNIMAGINABLE."

Let's look to the current state of affairs in the West Bank:
Legal Settlements ("legal" according to Israeli law -- all settlements are illegal according to international law): 150
Illegal Outposts: 128
Settlers in the West Bank: Over 450, 000
Settlers in East Jerusalem: Over 220, 000

In Sinai, the largest settlement Yamit had around 3, 000 settlers living there. In Gaza, the largest settlement Neve Dekalim had about 2, 600 settlers living there. Their evacuations were "traumatic" to the nation.

In the West Bank, Modi'in Illit has a population of 81, 000; Beitar Illit has a population of 60, 000; Ma'ale Adumim has a population of 38, 000; Ariel has a population of 21, 000. We can ask ourselves -- what Israeli government will dismantle over 275 settlements? What Israeli government would evacuate 700, 000 settlers, or even 450, 000 settlers? Who believes this is possible?

This is not a strictly academic discussion, because we have *seen* just how close Israel and Palestine came to peace, in the talks between Olmert and Abbas, and we know precisely where they got hung up. They agreed Palestine would have "strong police, " but no military or air force, and that the border on the Jordan Valley would be policed by NATO. Israel would effectively control Palestinian airspace and have full permission from the Palestinian government to make military incursions in pursuit of terrorists. The final map proposed by Olmert annexed 6.3% of the territory with 5.8% being given as compensation, and a tunnel would run between Hebron and Gaza. All important questions in Jerusalem were settled (although the plans for religious sites would have to be accepted by the broader Arab world), only a few neighborhood remained to be ironed out. The refugee issue, ever a thorny problem, had reached a principle agreement -- a token readmission of around 10, 000 refugees, and an international fund to compensate the remaining refugees for loss of property organized by Israel.

Where they really got hung up was Ma'ale Adumim, and especially Ariel. Beitar Illit and Modi'in Illit can be annexed without issue as they are right on the border, but Ariel was erected specifically to separate Nablus from Ramallah, it is an affront to Palestinian statehood. And yet even peace-loving Olmert said he would never be able to evacuate Ariel. It simply was not possible.

Abbas's offer, which was around 2% annexation to Olmert's 6%, kept around 60% of settlers in place. And this was unacceptable even to Olmert. Look up Ma'ale Adumim and Ariel on a map, and ask yourself -- how could Palestine accept a border wall going through the West Bank to protect these areas? They blatantly cantonize the territory, they make travel laborious. Even Abbas' deal is still one in which Israel gets everything -- a demilitarized, defanged neighbor which does not even fully control its own borders, but in the end, the settler problem is too great for Israel to confront.

I still believe in two states, even today, amid all this horror and wasted life. But we can not hide from the magnitude of the problem. Empty repetitions that peace will come when Palestinians accept it are not true, and they bring us no closer to a peaceful future. I do not wish for Gideon Levy to be right, but with each passing day that the airwaves are still filled with empty talk and no serious movement towards peace, I fear that he is.

[ericfranklin]

It is amazing that this guy starts off by saying that you can’t view this situation in a vacuum but then leaves out any nuance in any of the points that he brings up after. “Oh well the Israelis removed settlements in Gaza”, yes because they deemed it unsafe not for any sort of realization that it was unethical and illegal, “oh well the Palestinians rejected peace every time” yes because the Israeli government demonstrated every time that it had no intention of following the plan (ie. when Netanyahu accelerated settlement building during peace negotiations, when Netanyahu lead mass protests against peace negotiations, which lead to the assassination of the PM of Israel at the time violently forced Palestinians out of the Al-Aqsa mosque. And that’s not even to talk about how all of the “deals” that were presented were widely skewed towards benefitting the Israelis, many Israel supporters will Liam the opposite but much like the IDF they provide no substantive proof aside from anecdotes that could be lies whereas the other side has people across the board saying Palestinians were being screwed over all the way up to and including ex Israeli officials like Schlomo Ben-Ami who said in regards to the Camp David Accords “Camp David was not the missed opposites unity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinians I would have rejected Camp David as well. This is something a I put in the book. but at as is the problem The Clinton parameters are the problem”.

[caiop.]

After enduring this lecture one could only guess that the presenter was handpicked to make Gideon Levy look like a god…

[infinityandbeyond]

I applaud Gideon Levy... for having the courage not many would have to stand up for people that are not even his own. How beautiful it is for someone to put their ego aside, religions aside.. and to just think about them as humans who deserve all the freedom anyone else has. The one you say is "demonizing" Israel in a room full of those who oppose him.. is actually there being a just man and standing up for people who don't even have the means to fairly represent themselves or the means or visas to travel here. Imagine how much courage it takes to be Israeli and to stand up in front of a whole room full of those who oppose you. He stood up for humanity.. shame on you for putting him down.

[ActualHonestReporting]

4:19

"I don't know who's this is, but that's fine"
- The slogan of Israel

[ramiztairi]

So you want the group that you torture to come have a discussion with you?

[joanofarca-]

It’s terrifying because he actually believes the utter garbage he is spouting.

[DexKnowz]

He didn't mention that when Israel "left" Gaza in the early 2000's, they still had a heavy military presence there.

[aymanzone]

Why does he so blatantly lie? It's like he's not interested

[peterhixon]

This epitomises the arrogance of the Israeli opinion. Why on earth would Palestinian people be at the debate when Israel is obviously capable of, not only acting in vicious retaliation but of actually preventing them from coming.
No two state solution is honestly available. Settlers were withdrawn from Gaza only to create it as a vast prison and now, they want it back. How could the Palestinian people negotiate with their oppressors when settlers are supported by IDS even as they maim and kill those whose homes they steal. The forced disproportion of rights is evident throughout the world and the refusal to see that disproportion is mainly down to American influences. America says that Israel is their friend and the world caves in or else.

[theusu]

Did this guy say dwelling on past wrong gets us absolutely nowhere?! The arrogance

[kerbytelemaque]

“There’s a difference between peace and liberation, is there not? You can have injustice and have peace […] so peace isn’t the answer, liberation is the answer […] that’s the white man’s word Peace, Liberation is our word […]”
Kwame Ture

[Taleb_Jubeh]

put the single state aside and show me the suggested borders
i do believe in most of what he said as a palestinian and since both solutions are a dream for me the two states one seems nicer but the problem is the settlements and the walkaround is seperated palestinian islands controlled by israel not two states

[elizabethdemeree]

Clearly unfortunately though, Israel doesn’t respect a two state solution. As we have seen. It is sad, this superiority complex at the root of this problem. And everyone suffers for it.