The State of Heterodoxy, David Fuller & Meghan Daum

This is a conversation that was originally posted on Meghan Daum's 'Unspeakable' podcast as 'Talking Sense Into Sensemakers'.

David and Meghan talk about their shared history exploring the 'heterodox' space over the last years, and their impressions of what needs to come next.

[fredroberts]

If you have never been in cancel space, with your self image and your livelihood at stake, you would probably not appreciate the enormous battle one must go through to remain sane and rational while not falling prey to paranoia and/or conspiracy theories. A surface dismissal of that journey may indicate wilfully blindness and/or confirmation blindness. Go deeper.

[acuerdox]

50:45 that's not true at all, being cancelled is not losing subscribers because you offended them in some way, is other people who don't know about you mass flagging you so that your account get's banned permanently, and so most of your audience can't support you even if they want to. And that's not just about losing access to youtube or the like, but to much indispensable things like paypal or visa.

[vangoghsear]

About a third of the way though, haven't watched the whole thing yet.
17:50 Why is it that JP's fault? At what point do we say "we've tried, but these woke people are genuinely insane and we can no longer spend time trying to negotiate if they are going to continue to act like spoiled children." Why is so much of this about JP anyways? You had other figures on the right that were contributing to way more polarity than JP ever did. Why can't they be held more accountable? I suppose the argument there is that the IDW was a break from all that. Fair enough. But JP never went so far in the direction of obvious conspiratorial thinking. He took a centrist stance on the Brett Kavanaugh debacle. Much of his own audience roasted him for that. He never bought into the idea that the Biden election was rigged. Almost everyone on the right did. JP has stuck to his guns.
So much faith is put into him in this corner of the internet. The changes I've seen in him have been justified by the continued threats of radical left wing authoritarianism. Until this woke hydra no longer holds sway, then I will take the "audience capture" arguments with a good dose of salt.

[crakhaed]

This is great, but the audio disparity between Megan's audio being so much louder than David's, which I can't tell if it's that her voice is naturally louder or just the way it's mixed but she almost sounds like she's shouting and I have to turn down my volume when she talks lol

[MarioSpassov]

Sam Harris has not been captivated by his audience - he often antagonises it - is reasonably self-reflective and yet has barely changed his mind on any major issue. Our minds being impervious to change runs deeper than we might think. I'm not sure we understand change. Or why we are attracted by polar thinking in absolutes. Absolutist thinking actually feels good. You get quite a rush. Some take it to be a direct call from god. Really messy territory.

[jakemkultra]

The woman's voice is incredibly loud compared to David and is also distorting. Please turn her voice down to match David and perhaps EQ her voice so it's not so sharp sounding from the distortion. I don't think I can listen to this until you re-upload the video with better audio. Sorry to sound uptight. This is definitely on the top of my list of things to listen to but depending on how I set my volume David is either not loud enough or she's excruciatingly loud and piercing. Thank you- I love Rebel Wisdom!

[consciously]

What's fascinating is that it's become rebellious to criticise the IDW types, and the decoding the gurus guys basically shit-can everything to the point where it's a requirement to just accept the mainstream media narrative, which is just a bizarre place to land. I guess the fear generated by the pandemic is partly to blame, it's terrifying to face that kind of disaster outside of the comfort given by swallowing the mainstream narrative whole. The heterodox critique has swallowed itself and rebelled out of existence.

[FortYeah]

"Taking yourself seriously is a real crime in Britain" !!

[Kwalk]

I like the honest take on Peterson by David. Everyone is either in love with him or hates him which I get. I still feel Jordan made a good point 5 years ago that has been lost in the shuffle.

[christiansgrignoli]

I appreciate the convo but the interviewer and david are not in the league of the jp, Weinsteins, harris.. or close to the sensemaking crowd like genius Daniel Schmachtenberger. You guys need to produce content with them with good questions. Cmon u praise self awareness- then should recognize you're not A players.. it's to facilitate good content for the A players..

[TheBiancap]

The intro is a mystery to me, above my head - but I’ll keep listening

[lizmcilvaine]

Wonderful conversation, love the distillation!

[peterweston]

In good faith can someone explain what is meant by ‘audience capture’?

[jordanedgeley]

I love Jordan Peterson and I'm still glad you're happy to criticise him, I don't think he's audience captured personally I think he just seems to be biased to the right from the start for me

[MybridWonderful]

David sounds like someone caught up in a web of his own making. If all one does is look at what's wrong with the word then how can that be motivating? I went on a journey of self discovery during my twenties and eventually created an identity I was healthy and happy with. I think it is telling that David laughs at Americans taking themselves too seriously but I think there is more than a bit of projection there.

[nedhallett]

Meghan's point about the relationship between an experience of cancellation and conspiratorial thinking was very insightful. Had never considered but rang true.

[benjaminperez]

David, do you know of Angel Eduardo? His short essay "How to Star-Man | Arguing from Compassion" (CFI: Feb. 10, 2021) seems like something you'd appreciate. He's the co-host of FAIR's "FAIR Perspectives" podcast. I'm pretty darn sure you'd appreciate his writing (his ideas, ideals).

[consciously]

It's strange, I have no problems with David taking people to task like Dave Rubin and Bret Weinstein, in fact I appreciate it. Whilst I agree it's disappointing when people isolate themselves from criticism by refusing to debate people who disagree with them, I'll still listen to them and judge what they say on a point by point basis. At the end of the day, all these people are trying to make a living in an entrepreneurial space, so there's going to be disingenuity and capture sometimes, when it suits their financial needs.

[claycon]

We often have the convenience of choosing our battles. Other times the battles choose us. In this situation one can either stand and fight or tuck tail & run. In Peterson’s words: “You pay a price either way. You’ll pay for every thing you do and every thing you don’t do.”

Those who want to improve and journey toward the light are stumbling uphill blindly. This is still a drastic improvement above those whom never began the journey.

[gdonegan]

Once again, David promotes the theory that the IDW has been "captured" by its audience without providing an ounce of proof or even many examples. Is it not possible that the figures in this movement have genuinely held views that may conflict with your own? Are you going to continue to attempt to grab attention by critiquing them without basis or proof? Or are you going to start generating your own ideas? I used to enjoy this channel, but lately it has become a whine-fest by less successful content creators who resent their betters...