Atonement Theories

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Conference

[michaelrowntree]

Y’all see me try to drink water from an empty cup at the top of the show? 🤣🤣🤣

[Indorm]

When the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin and you feel ashamed of yourself in the presence of God, and then he gives you a verse about forgiveness, the relief is so immense, you don't need anybody to reason about atonement theories. You don't even care. You just know you're forgiven and it's the most amazing joy and peace you can ever experience. Also, if you've done too much yoga and then experience sleep paralysis that night, see a purple light on the wall and feel a weight on your hip as if something is sitting there, and it all disappears in a split of a second after you say the name of Jesus in your mind (because you're too paralysed to speak), you know that Christ has victory over all that is evil. But I know theologians need to talk and write about it all to make sure the church stays free of heresy, so thank you Remnant Radio.

[eswn]

Suggestion: Invite Kevin Thompson (Beyond the Fundamentals) to discuss his interesting approach and 'objections' to "Systematic Theology."
I believe that such an encounter will definitely take you out of the "echo chamber!"

[RoyceVanBlaricome]

Good video. All Atonement Theories were well represented and explained.

[joshuas]

The high priest did not lay his hands on and transfer the sin of the people to the animal that would be sacrificed. He did it to the one that was driven out of the camp into the wilderness. I believe in PSA but just to be clear they didn't sacrifice the sinful goat. they sacrificed the other one.

[Benjamin-rphq]

Hebrews 2:14-15 seems to paint Satan as a slave master with power of death, and we are freed or maybe could say ransomed thru the death of Christ.

[BtZealot]

If you want to discuss atonement models, you should host Idol Killer, who has studied the history of these things.

[RLMMinistries]

May not like the word "theory" but terms are VERY important and so is OUR understanding of them!

[JonathanGrandt]

You can’t combine Christus Victor with PSA unless you misunderstand one or both of them.

[atonementandreconciliation]

Great discussion. The Biblical use of “redeem” is understood as to liberate, to free, not to pay. Moses is the redeemer in Acts 7:35, also, “redeeming the time” (Eph. 5:16), “redeemed us from the curse” (Gal. 3:13), “redeem those under the law” (Gal. 4:5), “redeem us from all lawlessness” (Titus 2:14), and “redeemed from the empty way of life” (1 Peter 1:18).
Jesus did not make a literal transaction with anyone. Jesus redeemed us (set us free) from the addiction and bondage of sin so we would be the servants of God and display God’s righteousness. If we obey (Hebrews 5:9), God is just and righteous in passing over our former sins (Romans 3:25).
The atonement is primarily relational, not legal. For more information, look for the book, “Atonement and Reconciliation”.

[bradharford]

It seems that all the theories have valid points and represent part of what happened in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ. The problem I have with traditional PSA theory is that it displays a cognitive dissonance in a way. Usually people speak of it as God pouring out wrath on His Son and punishing Him for our sin. I have at least two problems with this. One, if punishment for sin is eternal conscious torment, then how did Jesus fulfil that? The second is similar, it seems to me that according to scripture the wages of sin is death. Death, not eternal torment or some type of punishment. The lamb or goat sacrificed under the old covenant was not punished or beaten or tortured. It was slain and its blood offered as propitiation. just like the Lamb of God was. Substitutionary atonement makes sense, but penal substitution does not.
When you legalize the system, particularly for the eternal conscious torment folks, you run into a problem. If Jesus legally, as substitute for the sins of the world, atoned for the world, then the world is redeemed, reconciled and saved. No one can be punished for any sin, because that sin has already been punished. No double jeopardy.
Also from a legal perspective, when a non-believer stands before the judgement seat and condemnation is pronounced on him, our advocate, Jesus, would stand up and say, stop, I redeemed this person, I took his place, he is declared innocent.
Makes perfect sense to me, but you see the problem you have by making all this a legal transaction.
Very interesting topic. Thanks for sharing.

[beowulf.reborn]

Touching on the idea that we are Ransomed from Sin.

The wages of sin is death.
The sting of death is sin.
The power of sin is the Law.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

I think this ties in well with Christus Victor, too.

[AndyTulenko]

Recapitulate, to give up again. Where does Christ give up in the first place and then have to give up again?

[collin]

For those who reject PSA, how do you address the law aspect of the atonement in your own view?

Sin and law are connected closely as well as the fact that the atonement comes from the OT law. So the atonement cannot avoid some sort of legal component.

“O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law."
1 Corinthians 15:55-56

[JonathanGrandt]

Adam was fully human.
We are not less than human.
We do not have a sinful fallen nature.

This idea that we are not fully human is some wild absurd nonsense.

[tonycaine]

Christians are followers of Jesus. Christians are not simply believers of early church theology, doctrines. You guys are way off on what a Christian is.

[michaelmacias]

The atonement which isn’t really an atonement, doesn’t reconcile God to us but us to God.

[harrisonperkins]

31:39 what the hell man, PSA does the exact opposite for me which is why I’m beginning to hate it so much. It’s all I’ve learned for all my Christian life (7 years), and I’m about ready to give up on God.

I have PTSD from psychedelics and I’ve never been able to escape the feeling that God hates me or wants to kill me, and somehow I’m supposed to have enough faith to where that hatred is poured on Jesus instead. Idk how I’m ever supposed to love a God who could ever feel that way towards me. Probably doesn’t help that I got my understanding of Christianity from Paul Washer and the American Gospel crowd.

[beowulf.reborn]

I believe that there was a metaphysical transfer of sin, onto Christ on the cross, so that He did not die simply to satisfy the punishment for sin, but that He actually destroyed sin itself.

"Surely He has borne our infirmities, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned each one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all ... Yet the LORD willed to crush Him and He has put Him to grief: You shall make His life an offering for sin. He shall see His seed; He shall prolong His days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper in His hand. He shall see of the travail of His soul. He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many; and He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide to Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He has poured out His soul to death; and He was counted among the transgressors; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for transgressors." ~ Isaiah 53:4-6, 10-12

"God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." ~ 2 Corinthians 5:21

"For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the likeness of His resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin." ~ Romans 6:5-7

"Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him." ~ Hebrews 9:27-28

"He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed." ~ 1 Peter 2:24

[mikejurney]

PSA seems to be a completely ad hoc invented claim. How is it connected to any actual events? It's not like there was a voice from heaven saying, "I now punish you for everyone else's sins." But instead, people try to pull up Scriptures and try to interpret them as having something to do with this theory.