Menno-Protestants - David Bercot

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[studiodemichel]

Commenting on your comments @ 08:00...reminds me of the catecumens in the Didache...who had a period of teaching before their baptism. However, in the New Testament we learn that baptism is administered immediately upon the reception of the Gospel message. The early church taught that at baptism into Christ...one was washed of sin and became a new creature. The rest of the teachings of Christ were given afterward. All they needed to know before baptism was: 1) what "sin" was; 2) the consequence of sin, and 3) what saves them from sin...repentance, baptism followed by a life of faithfulness. The lifespan of the "catecumens" (belief in Christ to baptism) was very brief in the New Testament. Saul's was the longest...three days. In Acts 2, it was the same day. BTW...I love the ababaptist perspectives on many biblical teachings.

[amberwilliams]

This is so true! I would like to add this scripture Luke 14:27-30 "And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish."
If, "once saved always saved" were true, then why would anyone mock? What is it that he must "finish"? Why would we need to "bear our cross" to be a disciple? Wouldn't we just be one if we said a prayer in belief? And of course, there's much more that proves what David is saying.

[amberwilliams]

Can't wait to hear more! Thank you!

[andrewkrape]

One thing that I think has majorly formed Christian thinking is Christian radio. The theology of the teachers is mostly PSA affirming so I can understand why Christians made the shift over time.

[jasonlowther]

A couple points of feedback from a protestant perspective.
1. The requirement of growth in holiness is affirmed by most classical and evangelical denominations. In Protestantism this is called sanctification. The Wesleyan denominations classically believe in entire sanctification in which one is able to attain sinless perfection, which the Dordrecht confession seems to advocate for. In some Lutheran circles this growth is called Christification. In Orthodox churches this process is called theosis. So, the suggestion that holiness is a strictly Mennonite doctrine is not rooted in historic theological realities. Passages like John 15:4, 1 John 3, James 2, Romans 12:2, Titus 3:5, and 1 John 5 seem to suggest a radically transformed life in Christ. If you are a faithful Christian, obedient to God's word you will believe something similar, Mennonite or not.

2. Justification and sanctification seem to be conflated in the Dordrecht confession. As a rule, Justification is the process by which we are declared righteous before God by Christ's death on the cross. Sanctification is the way in which one is being made more holy and like Christ daily. In this way, the confessions could be said to be different. However, the mechanics of both soteriologies are not different. Both protestant and anabaptist theology seems to recommend an outgrowth of good works as proof of purchase by God.

I don't think Anabaptists are unique in regards to growth in Holiness. While I will admit that the Protestant churches have bought into the cultures sins either in part or in whole, I do not believe this is due to an absence of a doctrine on Holiness or Sanctification.

[JT-qxbp]

I would like to share a lengthy quote from Menno Simons REPLY TO GELLIUS FABER page 95 in the second part of Menno Simons Complete Works. This begins with Menno quoting Faber's accusation "In the second place he accuses us, saying, "they have an obdurate faith; one half of which is founded on the merits of Christ, and the other upon their own merits. For Obbe Phillips (as he says) does plainly assert that the justification of man is not brought about by faith alone, but by faith, love, and good works" Answer. I would humbly ask Gellius this question: Does it follow that because Obbe Phillips formerly taught this doctrine, Menno and the others also teach it? If he answer in the affirmative I would say that he does us an injustice, as, alas, he often does. For our doctrine and publications abundantly testify that we and the church of God are not thus minded, BUT THAT WE SEEK JUSTIFICATION ALONE IN THE RIGHTEOUS AND CRUCIFIED CHRIST JESUS."

(I apologize for the sarcasm that previously occupied this post script space, no excuse for it)

[dylandean]

To believe justification is by grace alone through faith in christ alone in which faith is a gift received thru grace does not mean antimonionism. Hebrews teaches God is the author and finisher of our faith. Justification is not synonymous with salvation. Salvation includes whole walk, not just justification but also sanctification all the way to glorification. Its not so much “once saved always saved” but more “IF” saved always saved. Been saved being saved will be saved. Perseverance of the saints. If God has indeed made u born again, regenerated u, he will sanctify u and u will persevere- and those who fall away unrepentant expose themselves as frauds

[AndrewAHershbergerJR]

for by faith are ye saved through faith not by works lest any man should boast

[EzraCubas]

We've westernized this term "works" as though it has anything to do with following the commands of Torah. Paul's use of "works" or "works of law" throughout his epistles was in his mind meant to mean "boundary markers that made one a Jew as a means into the covenant of Abraham". "By works of law no man is justified", by becoming Jewish. No one can "boast" about their "works", for it is by faith that initiates one's status in the covenant, which produces the life giving power of the Spirit for holiness, not by circumcision of the flesh, ie becoming Jewish. It's all about what gains you status in the Abrahamic covenant, it's a way of how you get in. Generally speaking, to a first century Jew sanctification was the means to maintain one's status in the covenant of God. This is obedience to God's Torah.

[church]

What I find interesting about these early Confessions; they say nothing about hardcovers for the sisters. Yet, that is the litmus test for modern day Amish and mennonites.

[dylandean]

I fail to see how christus victor cant go alongside penal substitution. Why not both? I believe penal substition because the Scriptures seem clear and explicit that the atonement is substitutionary in our place. Isaiah 53:5

[andrewrutt]

Thank you David, very good. One question I have you mentioned a few times about a documentary your church watched, what is the title of the documentary?

[johnnilan]

I do like the foundations of the anabaptists, but where is the Holy Spirit’s work of new birth ? Paul’s received revelation is replete with the spirit man at odds with the man of flesh. Romans 8:9. Paul did preach the presumptive in filling with the Holy Spirit. So is effort of the natural man the end or do we look to regeneration of the spirit. Titus 3:5-7.

[tfritz]

What is the documentary referenced around the 26 minute mark?

[jordanmartin]

I'm curious what David might say to someone who says that he shouldn't call himself Anabaptist. The challenge might go something along these lines. You (David) hold to baptismal regeneration which is not a historically Mennonite teaching, you hold to real presence in the Eucharist, also not historically Mennonite/Anabaptist. Neither of the positions held by David are supported by the Dortrecht Confession even though they both get their own article. Perhaps I am mistaken on David's own views (in which case I apologize) but I am curious to how he would respond.

[heavenbound---]

Luther preached that we are saved by grace through faith, what does easy believism mean? 🤔

[johnnilan]

Leo Tolstoy’s theology is even stricter than what i am hearing here.

[Tnado]

The most conservative Mennonite churches--especially Nationwide and Eastern--have not lost this understanding from the Dordrecht Confession when it comes to their theology regarding salvation. When visiting these churches they teach a theology of faith and obedience coupled with a transformed life emphasizing "walking with Christ" for salvation.

I wonder if this is more of an issue among moderate conservative Mennonite churches that are being more influenced more by Protestant views via media etc.

They do, however, need to work on having the same zeal for evangelism that the early anabaptists had.

[golove]

It seems I remember David sharing that he was working with a university recently to develop a course/degree for early church studies. Is this still a current initiative? Thanks.

[dylandean]

Sola fide does not teach antimonianism. U misunderstand the two because of ur own bad experience in a small church that taught pray this prayer and thats it- thats a modern issue not what the protestants were teaching.