236. Self-Control, Akrasia, & Multiple Self Theory

Acting against our better judgment is a bit of a puzzle: if we know what’s “best,” & nothing is preventing us, why don’t we do it? Who is it that’s doing the controlling or being controlled in “self-control?”

- Links for the Curious -

[patrickkelly]

Hang in there Short-term Josh. We've got your back.

[cjortiz]

Shout out for the 3rd Josh rocking the autonomic nervous system.

[marklandwehr]

Short-term Josh needs to know.We have Bluetooth headphones.You can listen to disco while you do your running.😂❤

[bthomson]

Revisited in 7/24. Josh. You are invaluable! My mind goes on absolute fire when listening to your videos!🔥It is as though I remember what learning is and how great it feels! Thanks!🙏

[PetersonSilva]

Awesome video! I don't think I can unpack all I'm thinking (and researching) right now with respect to the multiple selves theory but I'd just like to point out how we can understand our multiple selves (or, really, the multiple drives that compose our self) as not only a matter of selfhood but otherhood - that is, how others, or projections of these others in our minds, make up who we are as well, since we have other-directed drives too that are quite important in terms of defining our actions

[andrewshot]

Good video friend.
Provocing thoughts regarding self contradiction.
Reminds me of a quote by Walt Whitman:
"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)".

[Dramko]

Another theory that I really like that takes into account different aspects of one's personality is Internal Family System. It's also pretty practical!
Thanks for the video Josh 😊.

[jakobquick]

Hello Josh,

as you have pointed out already, the multiple self theory to me just kinda seems like an extension of Aristoteles Akrasia. Whether we locate the drag of our pleasures in the entity of a part of us, or a complete different entity inside ourselfs does not seem to explain anything further for me. For me it gets interesting when we stretch this thought over to longer periods of time. In a short term scenario, only momentarely pleasures interfere with our reasonable self, but here is then much more to be considered. How can it be, that the me 2 months ago is so radically different in its desires and perhaps even its reasoning and morality than the me making judgements today. A change in such deep and important parts of ourselfs, often triggered by only minor instances, maybe not even a concious ones, I think, this is the phenomenon where an idea of multiple selfs becomes maybe plausible.
Still a very interesting thought in this Video and very counterintuitive. Imagining myself to not be a stable form and especially not belonging to one ME is hard to gasp. Maybe because the Idea of Akrasia that Aristoteles and to an extend Freud advocated for shaped my idea of self too much.

I will think about this again

Thank you for sharing!!

[TheGiantHog]

Thank you, I didn't know there was a word for the dissonance I feel when I know I should be doing something worthwhile instead of mindlessly watching YouTube, very informative and interesting

[marklandwehr]

Short-term, Josh.I'm here to give you my experience.I live forty three miles from town Once I begin to bike with my marginally functioning bicycle With my music playing on my headphones I push it up the hill Then I roll it down the hill with me and my Large backpack I stopped when i've gotten forty three miles every sunday it takes six and a half hours Of course, I live in a beautiful paradise called alaska Of course your situation's not the same as mine

[DellaMirandola]

I don't say this too often, but this video might have gained some additional clarity by injecting Spinoza into the discussion. Oh, and thank God (or Nature) for Disco Elysium. Like meditating on less than perfect judgement calls. Your videos are amazing by the way.

[TheAgavi]

I never used to miss an episode of Thunk but I guess at some point it stopped turning up in my feed and I eventually forgot about it. Notification bell clicked now.

I like the multiple selves idea but it makes me think about where we draw the line between short term selves - it's a Sorites paradox. Any moment that could be called "now" gives rise to a new short term self. Granted, the current short term self is remarkably similar to the one from now a few seconds ago (we share the intention to write this comment instead of going to bed) but it is different in that my current now is focused on making a different part of this (hopefully) consistent argument.

There's a shorter-term long term self that seems to encapsulate the existence of a continuum of short term selves. And this continuum is in opposition to a slightly longer term oriented self that still continues to exert some weight to the option of going to bed. In a way, this continuum is defined by its opposition to that idea in favour of the present goal.

If you continue to broaden the scope it is selves nested within selves nested within selves, each definable by a continuity of goals, present circumstances, or both.

The self is sort of like a river. The river is similar enough moment to moment to be recognised as the same river, even though from one moment to the next the water at any given point in the river is not the same molecules of water - and despite how the banks of the river will shift over time. The self isn't a consistent, persistent thing, it's just a recognisable pattern.

[anakimluke]

Thanks for this video John! I hold it close to my heart as I've been in big on trouble getting things done. I have desire and intention of making many amazing things, but I end up doing nothing I'd planed and spend the day researching and pursuing whatever is it that my brain is interested in that day. I go to therapy weekly and though progress has been difficult, it is still existent. Also, I forgive you for not showing Newton today :P

[Infantry]

This was a very good video, thanks as always for making it!
I find the argument for multiple selves pretty convincing, for all the reasons you described. Where my mind goes are places that weren't mentioned in the video: they may or may not truly be relevant, I haven't done the research, but I'll share them here.

The first is executive dysfunction. I may or may not have ADHD (I'm seeing a therapist and they have given some indications that it's possible) and those with ADHD can suffer from this dysfunction. When you framed the issue as not doing something you knew you wanted to do, it was ringing bells for me. Usually executive dysfunction is framed much more starkly than failing to go for a run, like failing to eat or bathe or get out of bed (it can look a lot like depression, but it can happen even when one is feeling well). Perhaps how it fits is that, those with this dysfunction are even more at the whims of short-term self than long term self? I'd be curious to see these set side by side anyways, though I feel like that requires a study, or at least someone with more medical know how than what I have.

The second (to my best attempts at cursory online research for specific terms) is I think Identity Theory. Despite it's rarity, I happen to know 2 people diagnosed with Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), and when you talked about there being multiple selves, I started to relate it to the experiences they've shared with me. Identity theory, as best as I can surmise, is the idea that most of us basically trick ourselves into thinking we have a single identity. By way of the continuity of memory, perhaps some general consistency in desires, we never see ourselves exiting one "self" and re-entering as another "self". Those with DID don't have the luxury, as identities change memories and ability to meet responsibilities changes with them. How it would relate to us without the diagnosis is to try and explain similar challenges discussed in this video, why we seem to change opinions or interests or sometimes struggle or not struggle to remember things, because it's not a single consistent clean and clear identity running everything.
I think the Identity model is distinct from the Multiple Self Theory by way of temporality: the long term planning self and the short term deciding self differ by their range of considerations and how long they exist, whereas the Identity model is describing completely different identities sharing or competing for control, where change in "control" can be triggered by all sorts of things, and carries implications beyond just planning or rationalizing. Still, I think both introduce an interesting idea that maybe the truth is closer to our beings being multiple cognitive processes negotiating and competing and aligning or contradicting each other, and we only think of ourselves as a single entity due to habit, or because it works well enough to do so. It seems similar but also different to the Free Will argument: if I feel I have free will, I may as well as like I do. If I feel like I have a single identity/rationalizing self, then I may as well act like I do. Except for all of these examples where we can see that perspective not adding up, the regret and hypocritical nature of our actions.

I'd have to think on it more but I am also curious what it would mean to try and plan things, keeping the Multiple Identity theory in mind. One thought I have is it feels like designing with tolerances in mind: you aim for something specific, but expect and account for missing the mark slightly. Maybe it's like, putting a reminder in the calendar, having a playlist ready, having the clothes and water bottle readily available, etc. is something similar to measuring a cut multiple times, from both ends of a bar of metal, with expansion coefficients in mind? I dunno, but I think there's something to planning with tolerances in mind, just have to spend more time on it.
Thanks again for the video, lots to think about :)

[thatchinaboi]

The more plausible theory is that control is a non sensical notion and delusional belief. After all, we can't actually choose to not choose what we choose.

[abrahamel-gothamy]

Great job man! I’ve been following you since 2017

[userMB]

I experience this multiple self theory in a lot of ways in my life. As someone who sometimes can't control themselves as this video is about, as someone who believes i should be vegan but isn't because of inferior reasons, but also as a practicing, religious person who thinks as an atheist. dozens of times a day i criticize my religious believes, sometimes to the point of mocking them. It really affects my life in a bad way. I resent people from my own religion who believes wholeheartedly in the things that i also believe but in my mind heavily criticize like for example the existence of hellfire. If i hear someone saying something about hellfire like that it a place for transgressors or something, i automatically resent them even though i believe in that too. It is kind of like a sickness. A sickness of mind of something. I yearn for synthesis between my believes and actions.

[mechailreydon]

Such an enlightening video especially because of how poor our models for self understanding are given how many people act contradictory to what they say. Anyone know of any good extra readings on this?

[TheGemsbok]

I am reminded of the discussion of altruism in C.S. Lewis' apologetics. Across several rather impressive leaps of logic, Lewis argues that only the existence of a divine personal being can account for the fact that people are sometimes aware of both an action they want to do, and an action they feel they ought to do regardless of what they want. In my first ever Gemsbok philosophy article back in 2015, I pointed out that the existence of such conflicting drives and feelings of obligation are adequately explained by humans being evolved for both group survival and individual survival.

It's interesting how this video breaks that down in even finer detail, as just about every dilemma you've raised here would fall under the purview of individual survival. So it may also be fair to say that humans are evolved to pursue both activities they're convinced will produce short-term flourishing and activities they're convinced will produce long-term flourishing---and that such goals are not always aligned.

[threethrushes]

My goal in 2023 was to produce and upload daily short-form content for my education business.

A couple of days ago I finished the video for upload on 1 Jan 2024.