The Problem With Catelyn Stark No One Talks About

In this deep dive, we explore The Problem With Catelyn Stark No One Talks About — a revealing analysis of one of Game of Thrones’ most complex and controversial characters. While many fans remember Catelyn Stark as a devoted mother and fierce protector of her family, this video takes a closer look at the flaws, contradictions, and overlooked hypocrisy that shaped her actions throughout the series.

With her cold treatment of Jon Snow, we examine how Catelyn's personal biases, moral double standards, and questionable choices had far-reaching consequences in the world of Westeros.

Was her hatred of Jon justified? And how did her rigid sense of honor and maternal favoritism ultimately weaken the Stark family? These are the hard questions we tackle in this honest and thought-provoking analysis.

✨ Join the discussion in the comments — Was Catelyn misunderstood or deeply flawed? Let’s talk.

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[RiseeRee]

It’s not all that irrational when you think about it. Bastards are hated in Westeros; people believe that since they’re born of either dishonesty or unchasteness they’re naturally treacherous and given to immorality in general. Cat is a contemporary of the Blackfyre rebellions, aka bastards causing mayhem for their legitimate, Targaryen kinfolk.

Now here comes Jon. He’s of an age with her son Robb, but unlike Robb who looks like a straight up Tully, Jon looks like a proper Stark. Cat has a completely rational (by Westerosi standards) fear that one day Jon will betray and usurp her son, and worse- that people might follow him because he looks so much like a Stark “should” look.

[tarvoc]

Reposting this here so it doesn't get buried at the bottom of a comment thread.

What I find interesting is that I hear this a lot for Jon, but no one ever tries to make this case for Theon. It shows that we also have cultural boundaries and blind spots when it comes to who we extend the demand for maternal love to: Jon is Ned's son (even though he probably isn't), so Cat should treat him like one of her own. Theon is just a hostage, so it's fine for her to not give him much thought most of the time, to see him as a liability and traitor in the making when it matters, and to treat him accordingly - and that's even beside the fact that Catelyn really isn't the only person in the extended Stark household who looks down on Theon and makes him feel his status as a hostage. Even Ned never saw or treated Theon as a son - which I don't blame him for, because this is a society that doesn't even have a concept of adoption. We call out her inconsistency and fail to see our own - which is a clear-cut sign that this is a matter of social and cultural upbringing and not of individual error, let alone malice.

The fact of the matter is that you're applying modern standards and thought patterns to someone who was socialized in a completely different society. We're talking about a society where adoption straight-up isn't a thing, a woman is valued by how many children she can give birth to and raise to adulthood, and literal wars are started over inheritance. Even aside from the emotional aspect of Jon being a reminder of Ned's unfaithfulness, there is also the fact that *Jon's existence is literally a danger to the future of her own children.* Yes, it sucks for Jon, but it isn't different from how literally every other bastard in Westeros grows up. In fact, Catelyn's treatment of Jon is pretty reasonable compared to how other people treat their spouse's bastards. In one of the early chapters, there's talk of Jon being given a small barony and becoming a bannerman of Robb's once they grow up, and Catelyn at least doesn't seem to overtly object to the idea. Compare this to how Falia Flowers (Humfrey Hewett's bastard girl who becomes Euron's salt wife) was treated, for example - reduced to the role of servant girl for the rest of her life and pretty much being treated like a slave and a punching bag by her half-sisters and their mother. You can debate the actual extent of that since we only have her own account of her life, but it is still blatantly obvious that Catelyn didn't *ever* treat Jon like that. The one bad thing we actually saw Catelyn do to Jon was the "It should have been you" line - and yes, we can assume this to not be the first mean thing she ever said to him, but she was also in severe emotional distress, so it was probably the worst thing she ever said. At least in the present, she doesn't even think about Jon like you would think about someone you genuinely, sincerely want to see dead. I honestly think most of the bad things Jon experienced from Catelyn needs to be blamed on the kind of society they live in and their respective positions in it, not on Catelyn as an individual.

I get why people dislike Cat. But we aren't unbiased in this, nor are we devoid of inconsistency. It's simply her cultural biases clashing with our own. Really simple example: The very notion of a baby being innocent is also our own cultural bias. Not every culture thinks like that, even European culture ascribed Original Sin to humans from birth for a very long time. In fact, the Catholic Church only recently abandoned the idea of infant purgatory, and afaik some US Evangelical churches still hold even more extreme variants of such views. Westerosi society in particular sees children born out of wedlock in general as morally tainted from birth. You can't blame individuals for views they were raised with and that no one in their society ever really questions (not least because these views tie into how their political system functions). Human societies take centuries, sometimes Millennia to rid themselves of such biases - much longer than the life span of any individual. Demanding of single individuals to accomplish in a lifetime what societies and cultures take centuries for, and in an environment that doesn't change with them and that would at best isolate them if they changed too quickly, amounts to demanding of them to be more than human. I don't think that's a good thing to demand of characters that are as deeply human as GRRM's.

[ArielEveMachado]

Catlyn is more like her little sister Lysa than people want to admit and while I do absolutely agree that her treatment of Jon is horrible, in my mind her worse crime is how badly she neglected Sansa’s education of what being a noble lady was going to be like. Margaery Tyrell is only two years older but feels like a decade because Olenna actually prepared her for the world!

[Gunleaver]

You can't just say Catelyn is a hypocrite, you have to have some reasons why. You have to show how her treatment of Jon is inconsistent with her stated principles or ethics. Catelyn's family motto is Family, Duty, Honor. Honor demands that a wife be respected above mere lovers, and the children lawfully conceived in marriage come first. Catelyn's family does not include Jon, who is no blood of hers, and a threat to her own kin. And Catelyn's duty is to protect her children's inheritance and secure the best possible future for them.

I don't see how you can call this "the problem no one talks about" since it's the thing most people criticize Catelyn for.

[andalilbitqueer]

Even in the show, Catelyn and Brandon didn't know each other that well either, Bran was named after Brandon because 1) he was Ned's brother, and 2) the name had historical significance, starting with Bran the Builder.

[wvin]

Catlyn Stark was spiteful and judgmental, this probably started with Jon Snow, and ended after the Tyrion incident. Because she second guessed her judgement on Tyrion she then started second guessing her judgements of other Lords, thus ending in the Red Wedding because she trusted the Freys. (Books) After she died that spite remained and the judgements became far more harsh. Stone Heart hung 13 year old Podrick Payne just for being allied with House Lannister in the past (he may or may not be dead).

[XmenSuperfanEmmaFrost]

Catelyn Stark is a great and interesting character. Michelle Fairley is such a fantastic actor; she brings this character to life. I feel like she tried; she really did. but her heart was not in it. I don't know if she was heartless but I honestly don't know what I would do in that position. But Jon did deserve that love (the love of a mother).

[HuntingViolets]

As you say, it wasn’t about being in love with Ned. Even his cheating when away and having a child wouldn’t be a problem if he didn’t bring the child home to live with them. This was not how things were done. His being in the household made him a threat to _her_ children’s inheritance. It’s also insulting, in love with him or not, for her husband to do that. I don’t see what’s hypocritical? Breaking a promise? She meant to keep it when she made it but couldn’t bring herself to. That’s human. I don’t love the treatment of Jon (mostly being distant prior to Bran’s “accident”), but I wouldn’t call it out of line with Westerosi thinking or hypocritical.

And Brandon was Ned’s brother. Bran was a family name often reused (they descended from Bran the Builder). Do we know it wasn’t Ned’s choice to name their son Brandon?

I don’t think it’s true that Ned put honor above all else. It’s clear he put family above it. He did it when he brought Jon home and created the Great Lie. He did it when he confessed to things he didn’t do to sane Sansa. Although it could be argued that these are the more honorable choices, this isn’t what people usually mean when they talk about Ned’s honor. :)

[Gunleaver]

Catelyn is not still in love with Brandon, her first betrothed, there is not one shred of evidence. Bran was her favorite because of his personality, or whatever reasons cause people to like others, not because of what his name was. Also, Catelyn would have been the one to name Robb, since Ned was away and not involved when he was born.

Sansa was never mean to Jon, it's something the show made up in the later seasons to retcon, because they hated her. The only memory Jon has specifically of Sansa interacting with him, was her teaching him how to talk to girls.

[Tony-ihpg]

Catelyn TULLY didnt have the Stark honor, she was spiteful, judgemental, she was headstrong, didnt listen, did what she wanted when she wanted

[Gunleaver]

Cat's problem with Jon was very rational. She was afraid of what happened at the end of season 6, Catelyn's children being passed over, as Jon is acclaimed King in the North, because he's male, with conventional abilities, and what we see in his dealings with Stannis in the books. Stannis offers to make him Lord of Winterfell, bypassing Sansa who has the right, because he doesn't want her husband ruling the North. In Book 5, we can see from how Jon advises Stannis and deals with the Karstarks, that Ned's tutelage has given Jon insight into how to rule the North, meaning that he could pose a serious threat to Catelyn's children, if he was so inclined. Cat's problem is that Ned is raising Jon in a way that tells the rest of the world he has everything in common with any other son of Ned Stark that might be desirable in a Lord of Winterfell. If Ned had left him with a friend or ally to raise, and just sent money or put in a word wherever Jon wanted to start a career, Catelyn would have been happy, and even proud of Ned. Because in those situations, the world does not see Jon as a viable successor to Ned, or possibly preferable to Catelyn's children.

[Oonagh]

I completely agree. I never liked Catlyn and never understood why anyone did.

[MinervaVictrix]

I agree that Cat is pretty awful and irrationally hate-filled toward Jon, but I don't know if I think she ever loved Brandon Stark. She barely knew him before he left for King's Landing; I think it's all down to how she feels that it's an insult to her honour and position to have Jon at Winterfell. There's a part in the first(?) book where she's basically like "sure, lots of lords have bastards, but THEY don't bring them to their homes and make them part of the family, " so I always had the feeling that she was offended that Ned never seemed embarrassed or guilty about Jon (of course, we know why that is).

[orangetahou]

I can't decide if i appreciate you pointing out or if i should feel dumb for not realizing all the names being reused as they were. Bran, Jon, and Robb 🤯

[afterfauve]

I tried getting into Game of Thrones, but it's classic soap opera writing, lots of back story and side stories which bend believably to fill plot holes. Haven't read George RR Martin's works, but considering how thick his novels are, and how tedious - GOT is, I imagine he is a brain droppings writer.

[purshottamadevadhikar]

Nah L take. Catelyns a great character.

[nunocolon]

Well she wasn’t really a stark for starters she was a Tully .. and idk if her hatred for Jon was “irrational” with a capital I .. she presumed him to be the product of her husband sexing someone else .. I mean it takes a special person for that not to affect. Plus her fear that her natural born children be replaced. Idk if that’s irrational.

[waistedwitch]

what do you mean he was ned and lyannas

[NAZMINKHANAM-oltd]

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