Double Dead End 3-Way (Secret Method Reveled)

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[rontiemens]

Amazing. Thank you. I have watched many, many YouTube videos on this topic and they were all clear as mud. Yours, though, is abundantly clear. Very easy to follow. Yours are some of the very best electrical videos on YouTube. Again, THANK YOU!!!

[ballerodayear]

I call it "three way, power at the light." Great demo. Thanks

[hirprimate]

I recently did some troubleshooting in a kitchen which was wired this way. Somebody (I’m guessing a homeowner) removed one of the three way switches and put in a single pole switch. They didn’t know where to put the white wire so they put it on the equipment ground screw on the switch. It was an old cloth wire house without proper equipment grounding. So every time someone flipped the other three way switch the yoke and metal box had 120v to neutral. No one ever got shocked because there was no ground nearby to touch. Plus once it was all installed the only non plastic parts were the two painted screws holding the plate on. I did put my probe in the screw slot and tested to a nearby outlet’s neutral and it was 120! The homeowner said it was like that when they moved in a couple years ago. Crazy!

[thooper]

This definitely interesting. I will say you definitely want a neutral (and ground) inside each light switch box if you ever want to run smart light switches.

[TheForgottenMan]

For those who believe a neutral is required by code, that is incorrect based on code. But we need to remember that code is the minimum requirement, so jurisdiction having authority can require a neutral at every switch location. Having a neutral at every location is not a code violation. Not having a neutral at any location is a code violation. Depending what code year your state uses will also determine what are violation and not violations. There are States that still only apply the 2008 code, so what does that code year say about it?

This reminded me of me installing 2 dead end 3-ways with a 4-way. The line and load go to one outlet switch box. The power ties to one of the 3 wires sending it to a 2nd outlet. The switch leg ties to the other 3 wire going to the 3rd outlet. The white and red wires are used as travelers from each of the 3 wires, but instead of tying them together they are landed on a 4-way switch. Then obviously the neutrals are tied together and grounds.

[JfromUK_]

I'm viewing from the UK, not an electrician but comfortable with the topic and have changed a few lights and switches, so this is all very interesting to see practices over in the US :) Very clearly diagrammed and explained -- I can see you prepared well! I enjoyed your explanation of the Chicago (yikes) and California three-ways!

FWIW, I don't know what the UK "code" ("The Regs", or IET Wiring Regulations) says is legal, but from my experience it seems normal to have the power at the fixture and to make loops to switches and back, similar to this. Standard pendant fittings have a 3-3-2 screw terminal bank tailored for a single switch, though I have seen them wired "creatively" which left me sketching and buzzing through to figure out what was going on when changing a fitting! I hope our Regs have caught up with requiring neutrals at switch boxes, but my place was built in the 70s so no chance 😂 Keep up the good work :)

[danilo]

I thought the thumbnail was showing 2 wires on the same screw. I was super excited to learn something mind blowing 🤪

[oBseSsIoNPC]

It is interesting how they are jumping back and forth between compliant and non-compliant over weird reasons. As long as you don't do a Chicago 3way, you are pretty safe :)
And of course, you would normally cross over the wires, so the light is off, with both switches in the off position.

[snakeinthegrass]

I may be wrong but I thought per code, when you re-identify a white wire to hot, it is not supposed to be switched. In other words, in the 3-way scenarios, the white can only be used as a common, not a traveler. I've had this discussion many times in my career. Your thoughts...Thanks!

[neiloevocati]

You are obviously well versed on the subject of wiring and of course, your choice of meals, Factor, is also a Grand choice in my household, I have not been disappointed

[tomfisher]

Thank you for posting this . Just came across this when someone on the carpenter crew disconnected the switches during renovation and they ask me to take a look at it. I figured it out and in my mind I thought I had it correct then I came across your channel and it confirmed I was correct on reinstalling the the three way switches. Hey what’s up with the Air Force hat ? 37 years all together for me

[tjbailey]

Great explanation of a dead end for these newbs.

[davidtaschuk]

I just saw somewhere on YouTube that this is no longer code approved because at least one of the switch boxes needs a neutral ( to accommodate smart devices). Same goes for a good old single switch loop using 14-2. I’m not an electrician, what’s your take?

[jovetj]

Right before your sponsor message, it clicked what you meant by "double dead-end 3-way". It's when the power is fed to the light fixture first, and each 3-way switch is its own "dead-end" that heads back to the light box. Unfortunately I had a friend wire all the lights in his newly-furbished basement like this. And several 4-ways were involved too, and they all went to the ceiling too. And none of them were marked. And almost all of them were cut off way too short in the ceiling box. It was a mess!

[GilliganBMT]

All of the 3 way switches in my parents house from the 60s are wired using these two methods. I always called these "power at light" for the double dead-end and "master slave 3-way" for the dead-end.

[TomFarrell-pz]

Nice John! Thank you for the idea! I don't want to ask for free advice, but I've already used a three way switch in a non-standard way, and I wonder if it violates any code, and if you'd care to comment? I wired an outlet in our basement to be energized when the lights are off. I then plugged in an LED strobe. The rodents in our area seem to be deterred by the flashing, but it's annoying to have it flash when we're working down there. Pretty sure I was code compliant with the installation itself, but I've never heard of a three way switch used like this. I'm guessing it might cause some head scratching someday after we're no longer around to explain.

[HoosierRallyMaster]

I have this in my older house. But since it's EMT the blue line is an actual blue wire! Oh, and the switches control two separate ceiling lights with another wire running from the powered fixture through one of the switch boxes and up to the second ceiling box.

[joselara]

Cool that you took the time to explain that. That usually pertains to old construction right? Because if it's new construction then yes the person has the ability to run all those circuits to make those necessary runs . But when it's old and you just want to replace the switches, just copy the connections how you remove you install no need to try and remember so much . Nowadays there's what's called a lutron caseta wireless 3way look in to it and, your welcome.

[sjpropertyservices]

Converting a single swith light for basement stairs into two 3 way switches is on my short list of projects. I think the live conductor goes to switch first before going to light, but I need to verify. Good to know of options if I am mistaken. Thank you for sharing!

[danielmunnemann]

Just a question from germany, don't you have more than 3 wires each cable?
It is a little confusing because we also can have for such installations a 5 wire cable.
We use brown, black, grey as hot wires, blue als neutral and green/yellow (both colors combined) as earth or ground.
From newer standards the blue has also been seen as "hot" or active/line.
For LED stripes which use 4 wires, we normaly use a 7 wire cable where 6 black wires are numberd (1 to 6) and the 7th is earth in green/yellow.
The Chigago-variant is here known as "Hamburger"-schematic which is forbidden since about mid 80's. Double Dead End 3-way we don't use in this configuration since about 15-20 years in new installations.
Most we use a california variant, here mostly called "change-over" with 2 switches or cross-over with more than 2 switches.
It's very interesting how other ones have the electricity going :)
Big thanks for your videos!
Some times I wish to have your larger boxes behind outlets and switches, espacily when planing went to the toilet ^^