The Awkward Science of Polymorph - Pathfinder/D&D

Don't ban me, Youtube. It's all just science.

[divinkitty]

"I'm a half elf."
"But... your parents are an Orc and a Halfling...?"
"Polymorph gets weird, okay? And so do my parents..."

[Zeetro]

Half dragons that are convinced basically throws a monkey wrench to this discussion. They polymorph to do the deed, the child gets Dragon DNA regardless.

[danielbeshers]

Wildshape maintaining mental ability scores is specifically distinct from Polymorph in 5e. 5e doesn't have Baleful Polymorph, just the offensive/defensive Polymorph spell which is Beasts only and power level controlled, and the incredibly potent True Polymorph which can turn any creature into any other creature (again with power level controls), any creature into an object, or an inanimate, non-magical object into a creature of CR 9 or lower. Which means that, yeah, your hand-me-down sword from the father you never met could ACTUALLY BE YOUR FATHER.

What was my original point? Doesn't matter, we're into the weird now.

What if it's the prospective mother who is being changed? If a dwarf capable of being pregnant becomes an orc capable of being pregnant who then conceives a child with a human during that effect before then resuming their dwarf form, WHAT HAPPENS THEN?

If two druids get busy as wolves, can an elf give birth to a litter of cubs? Is that where the Beastkin heritage comes from?

What even is the deal with werewolves?

Can you Polymorph into something capable of asexual reproduction and spawn? If you become an amoeba and undergo cellular division, can the other amoeba transform back into you as well?

[Zedrinbot]

I think about the common trope of a dragon using polymorph to produce offspring with a mortal. In that case, I feel like the biological functions of the polymorphed creature are identical to what they change into, but the more nebulous fantasy elements, like spirit / magic / aether still belong to their original species or ancestry. A human polymorphed as an elf that gets with an elf will still produce an elven child, though their "soul" or "magic" will have a human element to it--something that doesn't amount to much cause humans are mortals, so it likely won't ever manifest in the child. I also feel like DND has this unspoken rule that personality is based at least partially on one's soul rather than just the brain.

But when you have a dragon, who has a very powerful soul and magics and is immortal, and they polymorph into a humanoid to produce a child, while the child will be based on the (current) forms of their parents, their powers can manifest in the individual which is how we get draconic sorcerers. And if the magical composition they receive from their parents is different enough from their body, it could potentially alter what they are or become as they get older. (E.g. on that same note, I'd imagine two polymorphed draconic parents may produce a human, but that human may have the mentality of a dragon still and will transform into a dragon permanently when their powers mature.)

Also on that note, I'd actually imagine that half dragons come from... less polymorphic methods.

Of course different settings might have different lore for something like this. And as mentioned, different tiers of polymorph would likely have different effects. As the book at the end mentioned, polymorph (or fleshcrafting) spells can vary from just superficial appearances or fully alter someone's biology or species to another being entirely.

[willswanson]

I've never been this relieved to have been watching with headphones instead of speakers.

[platyclysm]

“Back in D&D 3rd Edition… there was a book…”

No, NoNat don’t! We mustn’t speak of the forbidden tome!!!

[Eruvadhril]

"Back in D&D third edition..."
Oh lord save us he's got his hands on *that* book.
Do we have any examples of the characters who have used a serum of sex shift in PF lore going on to conceive kids post-transition?

[maximetremblay]

The moment you talked about having a child and 3rd edition I was : Oh boy, here come THE book...

[SonicKing]

Nonat…I appreciate the lengths you go to to prove the most minuscule of details.

Also, I knew of THAT book, and it’s many many tables of descriptions. I’m sickened, yet grateful that it’s knowledge could be useful.

[centurosproductions]

You left out the most “important” part: what happens if you polymorph after becoming pregnant? Logically, the spell would likely also polymorph the fetus, since otherwise turning into a gnat would cause you to explode, but how would this interact with something like a fish, which lays a ton of unfertilized eggs instead of carrying one fertilized one internally?
And what would happen if you instead true polymorphed into a man, losing the biological parts necessary for carrying said fetus?

[squidrecluse]

Well great, now I can't help but think that beastkin are born from very "adventurous" druid couples, so... thanks a lot for that.

[harrythefish]

Sorcerer background has lots of lines of text that states you have [blank] in your bloodline including things like demons angels and dragons. From this I can infer that a polymorph was involved in conceiving a child somewhere in your family history. If I had to explain this I would say that Polymorph alters your DNA and makes genes active that normally would not (like how we have like 90% the same DNA as a tree) and magically makes dna bits that we don't normally have appear to make a true form of the creature. When the polymorph ends these newly created genes would become recessive which is how they have access to their blood line without actually being part of that bloodline. (they don't change creature type when they become a sorcerer.)
So in summary, Polymorph changes your dna to express things that it normally doesn't and magically make parts that don't exist which then go dormant when the spell ends. Aside in 5e polymorph spell changes your mental as well as your physical stats, the only thing that you keep while polymorphed are alignment and Personality.

[bryanstrahm]

I'm only three minutes into the video and I'm now powergaming how to use polymorph to make money.

What's that? Dragon blood is worth money? If I've sucessfully convinced my DM that "fluids" that leave the body remain permanently in of the type of it's origin, just polymorph into a dragon, collect some of your own blood, profit.

Nonat what have you done.

[jhonadruid]

5e: wildshape and polymorph are different. wildshape retains sentience, however polymorph loses human intelligence and gains the animals intelligence but as an animal you know friend from foe. with true polymorph as an object the target loses all intelligence until the spell ends. if the object is destroyed the spell ends and the target reverts to normal form and the remaining damage rolls over to normal form. your real question should be: if you polymorph a creature into an object such as a vase and then do the damage to shatter a vase does the target revert back in a shattered state?

[ConnorSinclairCavin]

Technically someone who has researched an extinct species of humanoid well enough, and maybe has a bit of their remains or something, could actually bring such a specie back to life if they had a willing partner to recreate the other side. Or, potentially, they could even create a new race like this.

[elecwiz]

Loki spawned creatures in all forms and genders. Discussion settled!

[yamato]

Maybe i have the answer to the half-dragon thing someone in the Shown discord-comment showed up:
DNA

When dragons think 'that human looks cute, let's have a date' and transform into a humanoid, their DNA doesn't change.

A weird example here, but is a sculpture of a hero made of Gold the hero or a bunch of Gold in the Form of a hero? The second.

For me, a polymorphed dragon is still a bunch of dragon flesh, bones and skin. But sculpured like a human.


Now i only have the question why reptilian DNA of Dragons and Mammal DNA of Humans is compatible, but that Has it's own answer:
Magic. Simple as that.

If a lizardfolk, dragonborn or even birdfolk would be as magically expierienced as a dragon, i think they could make babies with genetically drastic different Species.

Like the owlbear was made magically.

Thank you for reading, and Respect you weren't freaked out at the lizardfolk Part.

Nice Video!

Have a nice Day, everyone!

[LadyLagsalot]

Great conclusion, but I couldn't help but notice this was from the hypothetical senario that the one doing the magic changing was the male part of the steamy evening.
Now what would happen if it was a human woman making herself an elf, getting some, and getting pregnant. What would the changing of race while beinh pregnant do to the child?

[MegaZweihander]

I would like to say that breath weapon is a poor example of this effect it has the arcane tag and feels like it is magical. For 2e Insect form scorpion is better since it gives a persistent poison. 5e wildshape grants poison for poisonous creatures ie cobras. In PF 1 5th level or higher polymorph spells like plant form or beast shape 3 grant poison. Which would be pointless if the poison transforms into spit after the bite.

[toregotsch]

Ok now I have a few questions:
Disclaimer: This comment might cause weird thoughts...
1. What if a male true polymorphs into a female and gets pregnant. While being pregnant he polymorphs back into his original male form. What happens to the child?
2. If a female true polymorphs into an animal and gets pregnant by another member of the same species. While being pregnant she polymorphs back. Will the child stay an animal and what if that animal was an elephant? Would that kill the mother?

I'm so sorry for asking those questions but I couldn't resist.