The Problem with Spartan IVs - Lore and Theory

In this episode: I discuss the problem with the Spartan-IVs and identify the 1 characteristic that makes the Spartan-IVs the least liked faction of Spartans in Halo Lore. But the reason is not what you think.

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[Phoenix-]

On the topic, I feel inclined to make a comment about how much the fanbase's perception can change their objective view of a situation. Who here watches MCU films? Yeah, I know, they're not perfect, but I find Tony Stark to be an excellent point of comparison here. The man built himself a suit of armor likely far more powerful than even MJOLNIR, and used it to pull off some pretty cool stunts, right? Well, his portrayal is often of a flawed person, but he was made relatable by having him fall upwards from a morally dubious war profiteer into a redeemed and fundamentally noble soul who struggled constantly with his baser instincts to do better and to leave the world better than he found it. And...

...he failed, to be honest. The man was a liability from the start, almost to the finish. He created almost all of his own worst enemies. His haphazard handling of his suit's own technology and of other superheroes and supervillains put people at risk needlessly. He even ended up being the catalyst that led to the destruction of a team comprised of Earth's other great heroes. His laundry list of personality flaws, thrown in at the start as a means of making him charming and likable also ended up being his greatest liability. As a superhero, he would be a failure if not for his final act, where he, more through numbers of lives saved than through merits we could have expected to last had he survived, redeemed himself, since bringing back half the universe trumps any comparatively small missteps made along the way. I have a bit of a theory that the reason Dr. Strange's extremely and unnecessarily convoluted plan to beat Thanos wasn't truly the only way to beat him, but it was the only future the universe would be safe from both Thanos _and_ Stark. Harsh, but tell me it doesn't make sense from that perspective.

And yet, people still adore Stark, and they hate the Spartan-IVs. Why? Well, part of it's context, part of it's writing, and part of it is prior expectations. Tony Stark is the godfather of the MCU. He was there before anyone else was. His origin story is what came to define the entire franchise. He drew in a specific demographic of people who enjoyed his portrayal as a snide, narcissistic, reckless, but fundamentally well-intentioned man playing with arguably far too much power for his own good. But Halo was introduced to us with people more akin to Steve Rogers. Professional, quiet, and unshakable, with morals that, while not at DC superhero levels of ideal, are still very strong, despite a very dubious origin story. Next to Superman or even Captain America, suddenly having "Tony Stark" shoved on us might be a bit jarring and given prior expectations, we might find we hate him the way MCU fans hate Captain Marvel for being what is objectively a very capable and powerful superhero with a fairly solid grasp of what she needs to do, but one who doesn't have an interesting or likable personality to go along with it.

The Spartan-IVs have personality, but it doesn't fit the context well. They are often portrayed as grotesquely unprofessional compared to any of the prior generations, and worse, this is often a liability. And I believe that a handful of early mistakes have forever colored fan perception of the entire unit. Many S-IVs _are_ highly professional, capable soldiers in their own right. No, they aren't a match for past generations, but they're cold, stoic, focused, and preternaturally deadly, much like their predecessors. Many of the S-IVs seen in the base Halo 4 campaign, and Fireteam Osiris come to mind. But our first named S-IV characters are all unprofessional, undisciplined, and nowhere near as competent as they should be in combat situations. Despite having a distinguished service record and a great deal of respect for her fellow servicemembers (most of the time), Palmer is not a good leader, nor is she particularly likable. Worse, her class of S-IVs was the first, and they didn't conduct themselves appropriately then, either. They actually did so badly in the immediate post-augmentation period that Jun and Musa, a III and II, respectively, chewed them out for their shortcomings. And the less said about the extreme, at times almost Red vs. Blue levels of immaturity half of Fireteam Majestic displayed during the Requiem campaign, or in subsequent operations, the better.

My father used to tell me, "First impressions are _lasting_ impressions." And he's completely correct here. I believe that no matter what legitimate merits S-IVs have, it will be nearly impossible to make people _like_ them now because every time they see a capable, professional, and focused Spartan like, for instance, Jameson Locke, a man who even Thel 'Vadam, an extremely strict judge of character and fighting prowess, deemed worthy of respect, even hinting that he reminded him of _the_ Spartan, John-117, enough to perhaps even consider him a _peer_ to the man, they will always look at him and see Paul DeMarco. Or Anthony Madsen. Or Carlo Hoya. I believe Locke is an example of an S-IV who was selected and trained based on lessons learned from the failings of prior S-IVs. Stricter psychological screening is the most important factor. It's also possible that their enhancements and armor are more advanced, given the crazy stunts they pulled off relative to known named S-IVs in the Requiem campaign. They fight more like supersoldiers. Majestic fought more like regular troops with enhanced strength and coordination, but with poor discipline. They certainly come off as more professional than ODSTs have historically been portrayed.

Which brings me to the ODSTs, as a point of comparison. People adore them. Some of the most beloved characters in the franchise are ODSTs. Buck, Johnson, and comparatively minor characters like Stacker and the other members of Alpha-Nine. And yet, were you to hold them to the same standards as Spartans, you would find them quite lacking. (Indeed, they arguably don't even hold up to the standards imposed on real-world special operations personnel at times. They are far too prone to fighting one another or other UNSC servicemembers, for example.) Even Johnson is far too talkative and loud, and too ready to crack jokes or let his emotions get the better of him in the field to stand with S-IIs or even the relatively undisciplined S-IIIs, were he to be augmented to comparable levels. But they're human, like 00 said. They _aren't_ held to those standards, so people can appreciate their relative merits for what they are. It's all about expectations. Spartan-IVs are _not_ true successors to Spartan-IIs or IIIs...and that's okay. Despite how they're played up as "replacements" for them in the very introduction to Halo 4, they're a different breed of soldier for a different and _wildly_ misunderstood role. As I've said many times before, S-IIs are advanced prototypes with no expense spared in their training and their equipment. S-IIIs are arguably a limited production run of more cost-effective personnel, to be created and expended in times of extraordinary crisis. Both of them did their fairly limited jobs well. Spartan-IVs are the production model, so to speak.

They aren't as capable, but they don't have to be. They just have to be supersoldiers, able to be created in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the cost, and fielded in far greater numbers to handle jobs which would otherwise require one of the precious few remaining S-IIs or S-IIIs who survived the war. If they can do the vast majority of the work their predecessors can, that's enough. It just means the living legends can be where they're needed most. S-IVs make a _lot_ of military sense from a logistical standpoint. Not many laymen understand how damned _important_ making something logistically viable is for any military organization. They don't necessarily _care_ that their troops are "the best, " they want their troops to be as good as they possibly can while still being _sustainable_ with the available supply lines. As good as they are, past Spartan generations are _not_ as cost-effective as their all-volunteer "successors." S-IVs routinely do about as much damage to Covenant, Innie, and Promethean assets, even if more of them die, and more of them make mistakes. On a macroscale, this is an acceptable tradeoff. Ships still get blown up, projects still get sabotaged, HVTs still get captured or killed, enemy offensives get blunted at minimal cost and risk to UNSC forces, and regular troops and the UEG's public still get to look up to superhuman killing machines in powered armor.

[boinkohh]

The issue with them is that they carry the title of SPARTAN, but they don't carry the SPIRIT of a Spartan. Some do, but most don't

[SergeantKillGore]

Gabriel Thorne embodied what a Spartan IV should be in my opinion. Thoughtful and stoic, but perhaps more human than previous generations. Even though Halsey was mostly dismissive of the IVs, she appeared to recognize that Thorne came closer to the ideals of the original program more than his peers. Thorne was one of the few people who treated her with respect, knocking on the door of her quarters and politely requesting her to join him instead of just barging in like others did. In combat, Thorne has showed creativity and innovation by hijacking a banshee and using Glassman’s explosive vest to cover their escape.

[grimmlight]

For me this was a perfect breakdown of the differences. I love Buck, Vale and Palmer as Spartans, but as he Buck said "we are demi gods compared to the previous Titans and actual Gods of Spartan II & III's.

[voicingdragoon]

"Do you think the Spartans lack of basic humanity helped?" Yes
"Do you believe the Master Chief succeeded because he was, at his core, broken?" Yes

[joshuadarrow]

“Sir how did you do it? Those civilians said you got them out of the city, past an army of covenant, sir. How?”
“It was the mission, corporal.”

[PhthaloGreenskin]

I love the spartan IVs conceptually. The problem is how 343 presents them. It's said that only the best of the best are allowed to become spartan ivs and many of them were former ODST's but they are constantly being depicted as frat boys that think their shit don't stink. They should be presented as elite tier 1 operator type soldiers not cocky trust fund kids who's parents just bought them a yacht.

[bogustoastnone]

The problem is that we, the viewer, never had a “passing of the torch” moment. We never saw how an S4s life experiences, could be added INTO the Spartan’s way of life, or how when push came to shove, they stepped up to the plate.

Perfect example, Halo 4. You see the flaw of the S4 when compared to S2. John was willing to, with nothing more than a broken AI, an unkept suit, and a pelican, take on the fucking didact to save humanity. He did the right thing, disobey orders for the sake of the greater good.

What did every single S4 do? Play it safe and go back home to get reinforcements, and at the end, civilians died, while all they did was with their super suit, press the button to fire MACs to punch a hole in the ship for the Chief to fly into.

It’s not the powers or the humanity, it’s their lack of determination to do whatever it takes to get the job done and protect lives.

If a generic S4 had gone with the Chief, and was cheerful, cracked jokes and shit like that, sure, he was no S2, but he was STILL a Spartan, because when it came to step up to the plate and do the right thing, and not the safe thing, he stepped up.

[apewdiebro]

I always saw S2’s as legends of old brought into reality. True one-man armies that could carry an entire battle on their shoulders.

I view S3’s as grittier and more industrial having had corners cut since the S2’s and thus they operated much more grounded and darkly. Almost like an unseen death, they remind me of real life special forces, more comfortable with being stealthy or unconventional. Their look is what makes them my favorite.

S4’s remind me of if we took 18 year old marines and made them better than ODST’s. They aren’t legends like the S2’s and they aren’t a hidden death like S3’s, they’re just… ODST’s but better. They don’t really have a thing. It’s like if Titanfall Pilots never had Titans.

[AhegaoComics]

Kinda remindes me of how Buck once said that the IIs were like the Greek Titans, the IIIs the Gods, and the IVs Demigods. Even in cannon the IIs & IIIs were larger than life beings who you could almost never compare up to.

[Impartial_Sojourner]

To borrow a quote from another franchise " Monster is a relative term. To a canary, a cat is a monster. We are just used to being the cat."

[theovrmind]

One more thing. The Weapon actually asked John-117 why he keeps doing this over and over again. He replied simply "It's all I know". Yeah, it's badass, but also kind of sad.

EDIT: It was actually Echo-216 that asked the question.

[Steel-]

I do know one thing. The one person that doesn’t care whether a spartan is a one, two, three, or four is John 117. John is a team player. In his mind they’re ALL his brothers and he wants them to survive. When he sees any spartan die it breaks his heart. Just look at his reaction to the dead Spartans in halo infinite. They were 4s and He was heartbroken about their deaths. It was like looking at a father losing a son or a man losing his brother. I personally think that some fans out there are too hard on the Spartan 4s. I’m not gonna judge the entire group based on a few that we’ve seen in some Cut scenes in spartan ops. The ones that we meet in halo infinite were pretty cool and they fought well. Also I’m glad they stopped kidnapping kids. I mean I’m glad we have the master chief but still what Halsey did was messed up.

[shutdown]

Incredibles said it best “once everyone is super...no one will be”

[VallornDeathblade]

Ah yes, and now we return to the adventures of Fireteam Fratboy, where Crimson has to keep cleaning up their messes.

[ZOIMIBiIE]

I think in a lot of ways the Spartan 2s and 3s are more like equipment assets than troops.

The morale and confidence boost the Spartans provide is akin to the boost an A-10 coming online for gun runs gives infantry on the ground imo. Doesn’t matter how bad shit gets, everyone cheers when they hear that

[bigmac]

Yes I’d like a spartan to be more human it seems like a cool concept, but when they act like a basic 24 year old with armor irritates me because I am ok with them being more human but they are still hyper lethal soldiers that should be robots at least at face value but as you learn them have more humanity deep inside

[Skim-ynhi]

A big problem I have with the 4s is that they have two completely different portrayals. There’s the 4s in the games and the 4s in the books. They are so dramatically different it’s hard to appreciate them as one whole. The 4s in the game are weak willed, brash, arrogant. The ones in the expanded lore are thoughtful, ever improving, and heroic. The games really REALLY bring down the image I have of the s4 generation

[Genghis_Khaan_]

In the book “ghosts of onyx”, Spartan 2 Kurt was pointed out to lack Spartan professionalism because he talked too much. Chief made this statement and it supports your video as well. Kurt lead green team I think, but was still highly respected because his instincts were unbelievable and the squad he led was tied in war games with blue team.. chief was nit picking but that alone shows the standards Spartan 2s expect from one another.

Later on in the chapters Kelly was introduced to a squad of soldiers wearing prototype armor, she was impressed with their professionalism and resilience (quiet and mission driven) but later found out that they were the new generation of Spartans, the 3s.. who were also trained and molded at a very young age.

[catseye]

I think a story involving Spartan -IVs facing the true horrifying part of warfare and how they handle it would be very interesting to see