Fencing is a Broken Sport: Here's Why.

0:00 Intro
0:39 Part 1- The Rules
6:40 Part 2- The Organisation
11:01 Part 3- Some Optimism

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[Stilicho]

I've been fencing sabre for five years and every time I fence or watch a match there are decisions that simply do not make sense. Can you imagine if other sports were like that? "Your team got a touchdown but I like the other team's touchdown better - so yours doesn't count?"

[amanofnoreputation]

"And the point goes to . . ." * Rolls a D20 behind his DM shield, factoring in each fencer's charisma stat. * " -- The guy on the left!"

[andrewede]

Started foil at 40. Read the rules. First competition and was wiped by everyone despite following the rules and experienced fencers consistently breaking them. Talked to head judge who told me that the rules don't matter. Points are given to the fencer who looks like they are "in control" even if they break the rules. Went back to badminton

[FencingCoachYoon]

From korea, I'm epee head coach and my club has both class epee and sabre. I also wanted to give a clear explanation of 'priority' but it was so difficult and ambiguous. Thank you for your efforts.

[CFJNOLA]

Im a HEMA fighter. The fact that they use 3 judges who actively move around the ring leads to less chance of corruption.

[darksepheroth]

The eye contact coupled with the lack of blinking is legit unsettling.

[rubend.costaperez]

Just come to épée... Light good, no light bad.

[midshipman]

feel like there is a long term vicious cycle in fencing where rules were added to try and address bad practices in swordsmanship, but then people attempted to play to those rules, like finding a loophole in a contract, rather than what the rules were trying to get at, and eventually more rules were added to accommodate the widespread exploitation of loopholes, and the original intent gets lost in people trying to play to technicalities. the technicalities becoming the game itself rather than a guideline towards better principles of swordsmanship.

then those rules themselves become more generalized and “vibe based” becoming the game itself through judge inference when those rules were expressly made originally to get at good swordsmanship. so what “fencing” became was an arbitrary stagnation of technical addendums.

[frankswildy]

This is really interesting. I learned fencing at university about 25 years ago and returned to it more recently. Foil was really the only weapon I knew, plus a tiny bit of sabre. On return, it was like the rules had completely changed. So long as my opponent was advancing, whether their arm was extended or not, younger judges would ALWAYS give them the point and I couldn't understand why. Older judges would often award me a stop hit under the same circumstance as they would argue the initial 'attack' wasn't executed properly. I remained utterly confused. If you fence foil, generally the best thing to do now seems to be to immediately advance, generally with a bent arm. If you can get a hit in then you win the point. It's no fun.

[legendarynoob]

at local tournaments, it feels like all refrees are very focused in making the competition as fair as possible. Sure, everyone follows the "vibe" rule, but nobody takes bribes and issues with refs are due to misinterpretations of the common law or simple mistakes.

[dangilbert]

I fenced in the 70s. The modern version seems like a total mess to me. The priority rules and valid strike rules were based on reality. If you don't have structure behind your blade, you won't deliver a killing or disabling blow. If you attack into an established line you may scratch the opponent, but most likely you will be severly injured. The vast majority of the 'hits' I see in modern fencing would cause little to no damage at all. So what is the point? Yes it is difficult, yes it takes athletic skill, but it has completely left behind its foundational concept - disable the opponent while surviving.

[IndianaJonny]

3:43 I remember on the Uni circuit there was one referee that we nicknamed "The Parrot" because if those of us on the sidelines just collectively shouted the outcome we wanted ("Good riposte!" etc.) quickly and confidently, he just deferred to the crowd. Too often, judges seem to award priority based on perceived momentum (torso leaning forward etc.) rather than correct position - and it is largely down to them - if they didn't permit it, fencers wouldn't exploit it.

[justas]

Gotta be honest, fencing as a sport seems like it's purpose built to infuriate the practitioner and make the ref do so much of the work. That combined with the culture of celebrating super hard after every hit further causes anger and confusion for the fencers when the ref goes "Actually, I decided to follow the rules this time, the other guy gets a point". It also feels like fencers get super fucking heated compared to every other sport whenever they fail and the rules and pushes them to get super heated even more often.

Just seems like instead of playing pretend with "You must defend before attacking" we should just do what epee does. Get hit within a half a second of your hit? Welp, both get points.

[toddellner]

My fencing was close to fifty years ago. I've dipped back in a few times and have been saddened by, well, a bunch of things. The emphasis on a athleticism to the exclusion of everything else, changes in the rules, the abandoning of fundamental fencing skills (point control? More than three parries? What is this sorcery?), the bad habits encouraged by the almost complete adoption of orthopedic grips, and the reduction of the fencing canon to a few high-probability mostly pure speed techniques. We've seen the same thing in other martial sports such as Kendo, Judo, and TKD. It's what the traditionalists predicted back in the late 19th/early 20th centuries when very light blades and the divorce of sport and combatives began.

But the worst, the very worst, is rudeness and bullying. Dramatic emotional displays to convince onlookers that you should be awarded the touch or that your opponent shouldn't be. Browbeating the refs. Lack of common courtesy and respect towards opponents. Who would want to spend time in a toxic environment like that when you could be getting exercise in a healthier one?

I wasn't aware of the bribery and corruption, but it wasn't a surprise

There is still excellent interesting swordsmanship out there. But it's not Olympic style fencing. There's HEMA, the rich traditions of South, East, and Southeast Asia, Nguni stick fencing, Esgrime de Machete and others.

[damagingthebrand]

The falls are silly. We parried a LOT more when I fenced, seems like it is all offense all the time now.

[donaldbadowski]

This started because referees, directors as they were called back then, gave leeway to the fencer who was Supposed to win. Attack without extending? Sure, why not. And the referee who cares to insist on extending? Vilified and ridicouled, told he doesn't understand Right Of Way. And in you point this out, you get told we can't go back now, because it would be so unfair to the fencers who have built their game on not extending.

[CC]

Most fencing bouts from the point of view of a newbie spectator: two people bobbing, then suddenly both thrust, then both celebrate madly, but only 1 gets the point for no obvious reason. It's almost as though the mad celebration is there to influence who gets the point, like diving in soccer but in reverse. Honest question: is this double mad celebration less of a thing in epee?

[montykenobi]

I'm a Fencing Coach with more than 30 years of experience and you are so right. Thank you for your valiant and sincere opinion of our sport.

[mertonhartshorn]

I remember as a right hander in a university match against a left hander, short on referees and poorly connected equipment none of my strikes were acknowledged, and his seemed to be double counted. Requests for impartial eyes to adjudicate refused, I concluded that removing our protection and sharpening the tips would be the only way to resolve vibe-based judging.