Daggerheart will both SUCCEED AND FAIL!

This video evaluates the viability of Critical Role's newly announced DaggerHeart roleplaying game to achieve market penetration comparable to Dungeons & Dragons, weighing factors such as funding capacity, supply chain access, and the game's association with a minority of the Critter fandom considered overly zealous. Will DaggerHeart's fan loyalty translate into disruptive commercial success? Probably not...

[JWK]

As someone who is a fan of Critical Role (though oddly the one member of my gaming group who is over 40), I think you're right about the prospects of Daggerheart overtaking D&D. Pathfinder is the only D&D-like of any major size, and Paizo works very hard to make it so, constantly releasing new rulebooks, setting material and Adventure Paths (that last one being important because it makes it easy to run Pathfinder, not just play it). That said, I suspect Critical Role's real goal with Daggerheart is to have a game for their main campaigns whose brand is entirely under their control, ensuring their show isn't vulnerable to 3rd-party scandals, which is a goal that is well within their grasp.

[the_sigil]

Death threats over DnD opinion... what a very normal reaction. Sorry you had to go through that shit.

[mechjack]

My disagreement is in your definition of success. I would be more than surprised if Darrington Press is setting “replace D&D as the top TTRPG” as their measure of success. They’ll only fail to reach unrealistic goals.

[estebanrodriguez]

Hot Take: Critical Rol toxic fanbase is ALSO part of D&D toxic fanbase...
I agree that logistically speaking, it would be hard to go against HASBRO. But I wouldn't be surprised if this allowed them to expand their videos/series/comics, etc...

[cerickNY]

I think Critical Role could really help their DM/Player imbalance problem if Mercer worked to demystify what it is he's doing to DM. I've personally hoped for a while now that he would do a commentary piece on clips of older episodes to explain what's going on behind the screen; how much of this is improv-ed and how much was planned for a while and general discussion on how he makes the sausage, if you will. I know he's done some general game-mastery videos before through G&S, but I think it would go a lot further in deprogramming some of the Mercer effect mentality if he held the audience's hand through dissecting the magic trick.

[MrCowboy]

From what I understand of them, I don't believe the creators of Daggerheart or the Critical Role team view this as an attempt to compete with or dethrone WotC. Rather it feels like this is more about the CR team feeling like they can tell the types of stories they want to tell, without being partnered with and under the thumb of WotC and Hasbro.

They know that they can show up on thursday night and play most any game/rpg, and their twitch subscribers will still be there because they like the people and their talent more than the specific game they're playing (at this stage - this wasn't the case when CR started, almost certainly).

I don't think any of these new offshoot RPGs are intended to be the new top dog in the market by their creators (Daggerheart, the MCDM rpg, Kobold Press's rpg, etc), rather I think this is simply the perfect time for those groups of creators to make the game they want to play and tell stories with, rather than feeling like they have to play the market leading game to stay relevant. Overall I think this is going to be good for the community of rpg enjoyers as a whole, as it will show many (myself included) who have only ever played 5e, that there is a lot more out there.

[HEZAKIAL]

I think everyone knows DND isnt going anywhere, if theyre honest. What they will do is make more space for competition with their missteps. I doubt critical role thinks they can be giant killers. Hell theyre gamers and probably just want to go over to something else, maybe a little more rules light and more suited to their style of play. Its going to be interesting to see what happens. Im kinda rooting for anyone who wants to put a new game on the market right now. Its a great time to add something to the conversation that is the ttrpg community.

[gatb]

Honestly, there's a lot of projection coming from theories like in this video. We're all assuming [wrongfully imo] that CR is doing this to conquer the TTRPG world, when there's been zero indication for that assumption.
CR is probably creating a new system so they no longer have to worry about WoTC watching over their shoulders. They, just like many other indipendent creators, just want to try out a new system after the OGL debacle.

[oo]

What if daggerheart is not meant to be a 5e killer but to deliver on what 5e lacks: tips and tools for new GMs and their campaign story telling in combination with simpler mire wellcoming rules for newbies?

[mechjack]

There is a segment of people who aren’t Critical Role fans (me) who are also interested in seeing what Darrington Press has to offer (also me). If early impressions of Candela Obscura are any indication I see a fair market of non-CR fans buying their books.

[omarbenmegdoul]

There's probably no other fanbase less likely to accept that "you're in front of the dungeon, go plumb it and get loot" is a good enough campaign for a new DM and in fact very fun for players

[CloudVaris]

Counterpoint: it's not super hard to make a game that's easier to run than 5E, and just getting such a game in the hands of a bunch of players might just accidentally make a bunch of new GMs

[DocEonChannel]

I hardly think a lot of people give a flying fart about the toxic critters. We all recognize a toxic fan when we see it, ignore it and carry on with what we were doing.
That said, I think you're generally right that no other game is ever going to be a D&D killer simply because of the scale - WotC claim to have an installed player base of 13 million, after all.
Also, good point about the possibility of support. The smaller game companies that thrive, do so by continual production of new material for their game lines. Darrington Pres has so far not been that sort of company. It remains to be seen whether they can transition into being one.

[duseylicious]

I agree it’s unlikely to unseat WotC, they are working at entirely different scales. However, in my experience, practically every fandom has a % of toxic fans, I don’t think CR is unique in this way at all. It’s just very visible because the size of the fandom is quite large and lies in place where it’s been disruptive in the industry. (It’s easy for long time RPG’ers to be upset at the changes CR’s impact has made.) I’ve seen similarly horrible behavior from WotC fans, and definitely OSR folks as well (honestly I was almost put off from OSR games altogether because of the horrible behavior of a part of the community.) This isn’t to justify it, bad behavior is bad behavior, it just doesn’t make it as exceptional. (Same idea goes for Star Wars, Nintendo, or basically any other fandom.) CR actually does a lot more than many do to (moderated chat for example).

[HoosierJedi]

I think Daggerheart knows its going to be a niche thing for the foreseeable future and will make financial decisions with that in mind.

[sandman]

I do agree that they will be unable to overtake DnD, but is it still a failure if that's not their goal in the first place? I ask because so far it doesn't seem like that's their objective.

[filiformis]

3:53 My group has two. As someone who loves tons of ttrpgs outside of D&D, the poor behavior of WoTC has been a godsend in getting my group to play something other than D&D. I recently ran Fate for them. And they loved it! They want it to turn it into more than the single adventure I was planning on just to dip our toes into it.

[PyramKing]

While your video does present an excellent business analysis why CR's games have an extremely low probability of outselling or even competing at the WotC corporate level, I am of the opinion that Merer and crew never had any expectations to compete with WotC. I think they just wanted to play their own game, they played PF and then moved to 5e, and have played other TTRPGs. So creating their own game, is not surprising and if it becomes a nice business for them great - but I think only fools believe it will be a WotC killer. Of course, while it may be improbable, it is certainly not impossible. Thank you.

[eGregiousGames]

It's honestly weird to me to single out Critical Role fandom toxicity as a reason that the game won't be successful. There's toxicity in literally every fandom and every community and basically ... everything. That's the internet. Seems like bikeshedding to spend 30% of the video on that.

Also bizarre to compare Vox Machina to Harmonquest. Just looking at the art styles alone; Harmonquest is basically Family Guy. It's kind of an ugly "boomer" art style (and I say this as a dude in his late 30s) that is going for mainly comedy. That's fine, but it's not attempting to take itself seriously at all. One of the problems with fantasy media trying to break into the mainstream (and Critical Role cast members are also guilty of this) is that they constantly feel the need to lampshade the "silliness" of fantasy, which is a sort of pre-emptive defense. But while Vox Machina is very silly at times, it's also legitimately trying to make a believable show within its own world. It's a "serious" take and we don't get very much of that. Maybe like that recent Dragon Age netflix show? But there's not a lot.

I don't disagree with your ultimate conclusions, just some of the rationale you used to get there.

I also don't think it needs to completely dethrone D&D to be successful. That's like saying, if you don't beat Pewdiepie, your YouTube channel was not a success.

It took D&D decades to get there; any competing brand needs to put the time in, too. But giants do fall. It just takes a lot of time. If competing brands consistently make better games and don't make the fanbase feel cheap or cheated or taken advantage of, the balance will eventually shift. Even if, like Blizzard, those companies still make games, it definitely causes a slide over time that leaves gaps in the markets for more discerning gamers to pick up better products by people that respect their audience. In videogames now we've got Grim Dawn, Path of Exile etc competing with that Diablo space. In TTRPGs, Pathfinder is growing to fill the gaps left in the cracks of WotC's domain. And if Daggerheart is good, it may well steal some space too.

That's the question though. Critical Role are voice actors, not game designers necessarily. If Matt Mercer is helming the rules, there's a good chance it'll be good. But amazing? We'll see.

[minimoose]

Agree or disagree, can't argue that you have interesting and thoughtful opinions. I enjoy listening to you even if you end up being wrong. Thanks for being here, sir