Is Dordt RELEVANT?

Warren of Idol Killer joins Eric and Drew of @ProvisionistPerspective to discuss the relevance of the Canons of Dort within today’s conversations on Christian soteriology.

#Calvinism #reformedtheology #christian

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[undergroundpublishing]

Dordt: Where Arminians were condemned, for not submitting to a council that refused to allow them to question the validity of Calvinism.

[annemarieschulz]

Calvinism does wreck marriages. My husband & I attended a so called Bible believing church to later realise it was Calvinist. It was a home church with a mechanic running it. He was the pastor & totally convinced my husband that what I was questioning was just a woman’s emotional reaction to Gods truth.
My husband has been violent, swears the worst words possible even uses Jesus name in vain.
I took the kids to a sound church & they are now grown & married.
My husband would sit at the table after every Sunday lunch flicking through his KJV reading verses about silly woman leading men astray or verses he thought supported his churches tulip.
I still live with my husband but his anger is just below the surface & there’s no love in the marriage all over Calvinist doctrine.
It causes so much pain & grief.
My joy is all of my 5 children are Christians & have strong sound beliefs but the troubles growing up with their dad still causes emotional pain & anxiety at times . This is the fruit of this evil doctrine

[jamesbarksdale]

Warren, I feel for you.

Something similar happened to me. Not related to Calvinism, but moral theology and practice in my former denomination.

But for the grace of God, and a few helpful people, I would have gone under. Early on, I almost was reduced to living in my car.

Now about to start receiving SS. I've tried diligently to built back my savings and investments, but I've only had a few years to do it. I'm going to be heavily dependent upon SS to live.

Not a secure place to be, especially in our era of a corrupt and failing government.

I'm leaning on Phil 4:19.

Will be keeping you and your kids in prayer.

[scottibreiding]

Warren so much of what happened to you happened to me too. beginning with my departure from calvinism i lost everything - including my former marriage- due to a biased and unfair court system as well, though she left all her diaries behind that proved multiple times over again that i had done her no harm. my ex’s therapist she had for an entire year before the divorce ended up becoming my therapist due to the way the divorce played out. As a result, the therapist never charged me one time because she felt horrible over what had been done to me and the situation i was left in and wanted to help me get back on my feet.

it’s incredible you can work your entire life just to have everything taken from you. marriage is the only contract in america where people can be rewarded for breaking it. there is little protection for innocent men in these scenarios.

i feel for you, pray for you, and i admire the strength it must take to continue to do podcasts in the middle of all of it. I truly don’t know how you’re doing it. I believe that God is with you.

[chrisbastedo]

Provisionists: As an Arminian I am happy to claim you — I claim you first as brothers and sisters in Christ; and I also happily consider Provisionists my allies. You’re the Great Britain to our America — or maybe it’s the other way around since Arminianism was around first?

[Whaat-in-the-world]

"Self-canonization" is such an apt term. Love it, I hope it spreads!

[CosmicSeptic]

41:55
John Piper wants to put me away
Cause I believe in possibilities and that's not okay


My favorite band of all time.

[susanthroop]

I came on this discussion at the end and am happy that the brothers are assisting Warren in a challenging time. I will continue to give on a regular basis and I ask all of you to do the same. Drews idea to give up a meal or coffee is such a great recommendation. Hey I'm Charismatic and you all know I have a prosperity gospel so you know I don't have a problem with asking for $. A bit tongue in cheek there but I do believe that God is our provider and I believe in David's declaration of him never seeing the righteous forsaken or his seed begging bread. Also, I'm very much a proponent of how the early church met the needs of their brothers and sisters so much so that no one lacked.

Additionally, another early church practice was the assigning of deacons to assist in the feeding of widows so that the Apostles could devote themselves to study. I've been on a bit of a vacation and started watching some of the Idol Killer channel. I prettie much binge watched them all day. When I consumed intently the one on Total Depravity it knocked my sox off. I knew Warren was a smart dude but I realized his talent fully. This man has a gift from God...I know that's trite and worn but nonetheless true. Again, I suggest we step up to the plate and really support him during this time so that he can get himself upright and financially solvent and be able to pursue further study. We are all so blessed by him and the excellent work he produces via Idol Killer channel. Let's rally to get him up and running and be able to throw the devil in the pit where he belongs from all the adversity, he's brought Warren's way.

Okay now for some comments on this video which was such a great colab with the brothers. I knew about the London Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession but now we have another tired dusty document that has no relevance to us. You talk about dead...as the Calvinists love to....I say not only is it irrelevant, its dead...Dort is Dead.

Eric mentioned that he really didn't care that there are Presbyterian or Reformed churches. I can't disagree more. I was never a Calvinist but my family was and some still are. I can't tell you the hurt, the PTSD I had from the shunning, the marginalization from them. Praise God through much prayer and long suffering it has improved. Some are veering away from it, so its a mix. Its like the phrase that someone uses when they are using a vice and say its not hurting anyone. Oh yes it is. Also its hurtful to the body of Christ. Most of the heresy hunters on You Tube are Calvinists and they are outright vicious--a brood of vipers if you will. What must the world think when it sees all this infighting among Christians. There's no witness to the world of the gospel. I really think in some respects Jesus has removed our lampstand. Another problem is what Kevin Thompson of Beyond the Fundamentals has encountered. The stealth takeover of churches which is happening from an anecdotal note quite a lot. You can imagine as a Charismatic the marginalization I experienced from my family. But the online attack of Charismatics is vicious and vile. I'm not saying our group is perfect but we do not attack people. We might covertly refer to religion (meaning Calvinists) but we don't go on a vicious attack against them. Calvinism is truly is a doctrine of demons and demons don't know how to exegete scripture. Its a carefully packaged, systematic deception.

Final word. I believe were in a 3rd Great Awakening and were in a liminal space. Conversely to what I thought, the 1st and 2nd Great Awakenings were messy. I don't attend the institutionalized form of church ie the Constantinian model. I join myself to the missional and disciple making movement. Were transitioning to a more informal and organic system of the church...a decentralized one. You guys mentioned the making of a disciple and how this traditional model of not being able to ask questions and really become a disciple, a Berean is not fostered. So in this liminal space were in were beginning to see a formation of this organic model. You Tube is part of that but a local influence will be what were transitioning to. You have these models of micro churches and brave cities all in formation. So as were endure all this hashing out of doctrine and ecclesiology perhaps well finally come to know what salvation is without endless debating. Perhaps well simply know who we are and walk it out with confidence and boldness and be the light and salt of the earth.

[jamesbarksdale]

1:05:02 As the Elect, they've already correctly interpreted the biblical texts for us. Any other interpretation must be heretical and, of course, Pelagian. Therefore, we must comply.

[kitthorton]

If I understand Dort's description of reprobation, it is saying that God did not author Adam's fall and our sinful condition.

Double Predestination/Reprobation would assert God did causes man to fall into sin, but God causes man to be saved.

Doesn't Dort deny that God causes man to fall into sin?

[markridlen]

Jesus owned an Accord, although he didn't speak about it. Jesus and his disciples all travelled in one Accord.

[DMin]

It´s basically just a bunch of Calvinists coming together to say it´s bad to not accept Calvinism. It´s literally on the level of "I´m right because I´m right".

[HarrisBeauchamp]

David and Uriah is my go-to counter example for Calvinists standards of predestination and culpability.

[TheOtherCaleb]

Even as a non-provisionist, I not only heartily believe that Dort is wrong, I also believe that it is a disgrace to both the more broad protestant faith of the earlier dutch reformed church and their two forms of unity.

[gintas]

Great and very useful video helping to understand what can or is the attitude of the reformed towards others.

One can try to go a bit further back in history and find such a quote:
“For if, as the heretics think, he (I.w. Paul) had been chosen either by uncertain fate or by the privilege of possessing a superior nature, surely he would never have expressed the fear that, if he were not to hold the restraints on his own body, it could potentially come to pass that he would be re-jected or that woe would be his if he were to cease from proclaiming the gospel.”
This is from the third century. By Origen. First ever in history commentary of Romans. One might think he is polemicizing against the reformed. But nope. There was no reformed back then…

Seems history is repeating itself again and again…

[larrycavender]

I feel for your position, Fight lawfully for your children.

[LarryCheek-cl]

Hello guys. Nice discussion. I have listened to Warren for a while now but nice to see others having these discussions! One thing about Calvinism I would love to see explored is how far it reaches into churches and belief systems that do not identify as Calvinist or openly express any adherence to the reformed doctrines. I grew up between Methodist and Southern Baptist churches. One thing they had in common was a deep sense of everything happening to us was God. This was very surface level until there was real adversity or tragedy but at those times, there was never a mention of our adversary (the devil) or any human responsibility! It was always "we don't always understand what's happening, but God has a plan" OR "God is in control we'll understand when we get to Heaven" This type of belief really absolves humans of responsibility as if drunk driving or perhaps suicide were part of a larger plan. While many denominations may not embrace the 5 points, they definitely embrace some level of fatalism or determinism. In this respect, I feel like Calvinism's reach is much deeper than we sometime recognize.

[petromax]

I can't do much, but I will be praying for you.

[EdwardPhaneuf-vu]

One mechanism ensures the salvation of some, the damnation of others & operates entirely independent the actions of any.



The ‘eternal decree’

The breadth & depth of damage deterministic belief, thought & action has done in this world is difficult to even contemplate.

[AlexanderosD]

THE BOYS!
Lookin good and going strong!
Blessings and the love of Christ to y'all 😊