Is Mysticism Rational? LOGIC and MYSTICISM with Esoterica's Justin Sledge

Mystics are often seen as irrational. The word ‘mystical’ is oft employed disparagingly as a synonym for the vague, dubious and enigmatic. In this convo with Dr Justin Sledge, scholar of religion and philosophy and host of Esoterica, we challenge and debate this conception.

Asking: What is Logic? How does it work? What are its Origins and History? Is it Discovered or Invented? Is there a common Logic among the Mystics? What of Alternative and Paraconsistent Logics? Does a Two Truths Doctrine make sense? Does logic require faith at some level? What happens when mystics take logic to its limits? To what degree, if any, are mystics beholden to or bound by logic? Can mystics give up on logic? All this and more…

00:00 Excerpt
00:27 Introducing Dr Justin Sledge
03:39 Outline of the Conversation | Five Questions
05:32 • Are we taking the Mystics Seriously?
7:23 What is Logic? Brief Overview
12:44 What is Rationality? Brief Definition
15:05 • Are the Mystics Rational?
17:38 • Irrational vs Non-Rational
19:28 • Reality as Non-Propositional | Noetic vs Propositional
22:37 The History of Logic
26:40 • Modern Logic
29:54 • Pre-Socratics | Mystical and Rational
35:20 The Principle of Charity | How to Read the Mystics
37:34 The Law of Non-Contradiction | A Law to be Broken?
41:34 • Mystics and Logicians
43:31 Paraconsistent Logics & The Principle of Explosion
47:37 • Two Realms, Two Truths
51:35 • Can our Brains make sense of Reality?
53:56 Logic of the Absolute? Plotinus, Cusa, Hegel, Buddhism and Jainism
59:04 • Apophatic vs Cataphatic | Nay-saying and Yay-saying
1:03:33 Zeno’s Paradoxes | Is Motion Contradictory?
1:06:29 Analogical Logic | To What Shall We Compare Thee?
1:12:08 Quantum Logic | Dead and Alive? Wave and Particle?
1:15:08 Multivalent Logic | True, False, Both and Neither | Nagarjuna and Modal Logic
1:19:14 • Logic of Self, Identity | Levels of Reality
1:23:22 Double Negation yields an Affirmation | Comparative Logic of Mysticism
1:25:55 On the Possibility of Comparative Mysticism | Contradictions toward Enlightenment
1:32:13 • Are Monism and Non-Dualism the same?
1:39:53 On the Definition of Mysticism | A Heavenly Debate
1:45:57 Reading Mysticism Seriously | “The Mystics ain’t playin”
1:52:12 Conclusion

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“They do not understand that the [Logos] conflicting in itself, is identical with itself: conflicting harmony as in the bow and in the lyre." - Heraclitus

“If indeed, reality itself is a coincidence of opposites, as Nicalos of Cusa says, then have we not left poor logic far behind? And yet, on second glance, all this luxuriant irrationality begins to take on its own logic, its own reason, and perhaps through it all one can begin to perceive a common essence.”
- William Earle, “Phenomenology of Mysticism,” The Monist, p. 519.

Some good logic resources:

@TheEsotericaChannel
#Logic
#Mysticism
#Philosophy

[TheEsotericaChannel]

Zevi - So happy to have this important conversation with you. So much respect for you thoughtful, careful approach to mysticism and your content generally. What important work you are doing !

[ahobimo]

Justin has such a fierce intellect. It's hard not to be intimidated by such a rigorous thinker. Thankfully, he's also warm, kind and gracious.

[fraktaalimuoto]

Greetings from a physicist and a Buddhist! I really appreciated the philosophical rigour of the conversation. Very refreshing.

[thishandleistacken]

Found you through Justin's Esoterica video on Neoplatonism and I found Justin through Let's Talk Religion who I found through Religion For Breakfast. Love all of you and your work its been a breath of fresh air to find a community of people on YouTube who are spiritually inclined but not insane. The grounded academic approach is incredibly important, appreciated and needed.

[CPTkeyes]

I absolutely love that when one of them talks, the other holds their beard 😅🤣🤣 so perfect, what a great talk

[alwilliams]

Two of the coolest content creators on YouTube in one show? Outstanding! Perfect topic for this progssive hunanist Christian. I had a mystical experience 15 years ago. If you ever get to drink from that fountain beneath our conscious being, it changes everything. Spiritual intoxication is a real danger. Never underestimate something just because it's "in your head."

[lokeshparihar]

6:19 Book: Varieties of religious experiences by William James
7:11 Article: The logic of mysticism by John Findlay
10:02 A concise introduction to logic by Patrick j hurley
11:13 Ethica by Spinoza
11:45 A study of mohist logic by yang wuhn
11:50 Buddhist Logic by th. Stcherbatsk
17:17 The idea of holy: An inquiry into the non-rational factor in the idea of the divine and its relation to the rational by RUDOLF OTTO
20:30 Mysticism and Language by STETVEN T. KATZ
26:02 the port-royal logic
26:50 The foundadtions of arithmetic by GOTTLOB FREGE
27:24 Principia Mathematica by whitehead and russell
34:55 Mysticism by EVELYN UNDERHILL
44:20 why Contradiction is not acceptable

[Seven-mcpb]

Esoterica is a great channel. I love the jokes Dr. Sledge does throughout every download.

[DarkMoonDroid]

This is one of the most important conversations we can have as a species.
Period.
It always has been.
G_d bless you both for bringing your substantial dedication and scholarship to it for us.
WOW!
🔥

[mwbgallery]

Sharing the fluidity of knowledge through well mannered and thought-out discourse and play is as good as it gets.

[heressomestuffifound]

This reminds me of an essay by Aleister Crowley I read in The Equinox Volume 1 No 2 yesterday. In “The Psychology of Hashish” he brings up many of these points a hundred years ago. As you said if the mystics are right it’s crazy that this isn’t being discussed more in intellectual circles. Great discussion guys!

[josie_posie]

As a writer looking to tackle global mysticism, you guys helped bring to focus my dilemmas in how to treat the subject, if it is one subject, esp with varying degrees of understanding for the religious environment each flavor of mysticism was born from. I now have a grip on where we are in this conversation. 🙏 Phenomenal work

[artsolomon]

I feel blessed, we (the audience) can see these kind of intellectual conversations about one of the most important and most fascinating subjects talked about by two people i really admire on their knowledge and their very unique and pleasant personalities.

[stefanislutty]

This was a rather interesting dialogue between Zevi of Seekers of Unity and Dr. Justin Sledge of Esoterica.

The deep dive into philosophy was at times beyond my knowledge. I took a few courses in philosophy at Philadelphia Biblical University (i.e. Cairn University), but mostly Ethics and Metaphysics not Logic, and so this episode made me realize just how much I still have to learn regarding Philosophy as a discipline, especially Logic.

That said, I enjoyed the honest contrast between the two. I have a lot in common with both interest wise, but I probably am closer to the perspective of Zevi as a practicing Lurianic Kabbalist myself, yet I also enjoy having Dr. Sledge challenge my perspective with his deep skepticism.

I tend to agree with Zevi that there seems to be an overall synthesis between the various mystical traditions.

I, myself, practice Zen Buddhist meditation mixed with Laya Yoga meditation, mixed with Abulafian Hithbodeduth meditation, mixed with Taoist Neidan meditation, mixed with elements of Sufi and Hesychasm meditation, et cetera, and I have personally observed that the seemingly different references to the Chakras-Padmas, or the Tantiens, or the Sephiroth, or the Lataif, et cetera, can all be understood as simply a different religious bias, paradigm, world view, et cetera, affecting the experiential interpretation of internal sensations (probably just neural synapses interacting with the mind?!) as internal vortices of energy, which seemingly cause my body to shake or quake, et cetera, in a weird manner, perhaps like the experience of the Shakers or the Quakers, et cetera.

I personally do not interpret these sensations as any sort of literal, supernatural psycho-spiritual occurrence, but they do seem to represent a shared mystical experience of meditation as described in these many often disparate mystical traditions, and I have been able to replicate them, with predictable outcomes of visionary experience (maybe being only hallucinations, but self-induced and intentional nonetheless).

Indeed, even within a common tradition such as my own religion of Judaism, I have practiced meditation upon the seven היכלות, using the Divine Names and the Barbarous Names provided in the זוטראתי and the רבאתי as a sort of mantra, or the various Tetragrammaton permutations, using the Pranyama-styled breathing techniques and head motions of the Or HaSekel, mixed with the גמטריות of Chayai Olam HaBa, along with a contemplation of the ten ספירות and Divine Names of the Shaarei Orah, and arrived at a similar outcome, involving an experience of internal, whirling sensations, and also visions.

Now admittedly I am at times utilizing certain combinations from different traditions such as those of Abulafia and Gikatilla, but they were historical contemporaries who appear to have influenced each other, while also at times disagreeing with each other on whether to meditate with the 22 Hebrew letters or the 10 Sephiroth, whereas I tend to use both simultaneously.

Yet, I am admittedly inspired by Rabbi Chaim Vital’s own seeming mixture of these traditions together, along with יחודים derived from the ARIeL, the godly Rabbi Isaac of Luria, blessed be his memory, and where he described mystical visions similar to my own, with my head seemingly glowing afterwards, et cetera, in his Shaar Ruach HaQodesh.

Furthermore, I admittedly interpret the reference in the Sepher Yetzirah (עולם, שנה, ונפש, along with the תלי, גלגל, ולב) to be different lower and higher experiences of the ten ספירות as Chakra-like sensations in the lower dimensions of the Soul and Heart.

Therefore, there may possibly be a confirmation bias in my own personal mystical experience, but one which I seem to find confirmation for elsewhere, even when I study mystical disciplines as different as say those mentioned by Tsung Hwa Jou in his The Tao of Meditation, where I am able to better contrast my own sense of internal sensation at times as being closer to the three Tantien located near the possible bidily locations of the three doublets of הוד ונצח, חסד וגבורה, חכמה ובינה rather than just the seven Chakras of Laya Yoga, for instance, suggesting perhaps just a particular stress upon certain aspects of observation, emphasis, and jargon in each of these distinct mystical traditions?

I would further argue that perhaps the more distinct aspects between these mystical traditions actually derive from the distinct religious traditions from whence they originate, rather than the meditative methods themselves.

Indeed, I would argue that, while these mystic traditions cannot be properly separated from their religious dogma and ritual, the esotericism from the exotericism, say Kabbalah from Judaism or Sufism from Islam, the mystical and religious aspects should be considered separately, mostly as being personal versus collective, and mystery rite versus doctrinal rite, et cetera.

I have often discouraged my own students of meditation over the decades to avoid the ecumenical approach of the New Age movement, and instead immerse themselves in the religious culture and custom of the particular meditative tradition we are studying, in order to grasp a sense of its distinct world view, before beginning to correlate it with our shared experience of meditative traditions we have already studied and practiced. Although, truth be told, because of this approach of mine, which I adopted from my study of Rabbi Abraham Abulafia, I often lose my students to other teachers as they become enamoured with a particular mystical tradition, be it Taoism (Luke Hart) or Zen Buddhism (Aimee Desjardins), et cetera - but sadly, never Kabbalistic meditation, other than my very first student David E. Scheel, a practicing psychologist from San Francisco, CA.

After listening to Dr. Sledge tonight, however, I realize that I need to more formally consider and develop my own approach to the Divine transcendence versus immanence problem of logical contradiction, since there do seem to be very substantial logical issues unresolved in regard to the matter!

My instinct has been for decades to simply adopt the Zoharic notion that there are perhaps two aspects of the Divine: אריך אנפין וזעיר אנפין, which is perhaps derived from my early Rosicrucian experience with the notion of Macroprosopus and Microprosopus from the Qabalah Unveiled translation of Knorr von Rosenroth’s Cabala Denudata by Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers.

I have mostly finished my own updated version of the first section of Mr. Mathers’ Qabalah Unveiled, סיפרא דצניותא, providing the original Latin text of the Cabala Denudata, along with my own slightly revised version of the critical Aramaic text provided by Dr. Daniel C. Matt, but maintaining otherwise the original English transcription of Mr. Mathers, in an updated format, along with my own commentary notes added as part of my Jedi Knowledge Commentary series, of which I also hope to soon finish my translation of, at least, Books four and five of the Sepher Raziel, as a preferable and more critical version of it as compared to the respectfully aspirational but faulty translation by Steve Savedow, having consulted an online manuscript of it, along with an online copy of Merkavah Shelemah, but unfortunately not having access to the Oxford Hebr. C 65 or the Sasson Collection Ms. 522 of the Cairo Geniza manuscripts in order to establish a truly critical text of it.

[BUGZYLUCKS]

Blessings guys keep up the great videos

[pentegarn]

In my personal experience I had tried casting some magick circles rooted in the Key of Solomon style. I tried it a couple times with no result...but I was very very logical at the time. I was pretty much an atheist but was open minded enough to try it. But it wasn't until I threw myself into it 100% and just dropped my left brained approach to the ritual that it finally worked with dramatic result. And by dramatic I mean I physically seen and heard spirits outside the circle. But it takes a certain amount of "letting oneself go", which is something Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa says in his "Three Books of Occult Philosophy" 1510.

[txcn]

This is a heroic task, the very foundation of a mysitcal worldview presents an incompatibility with rational thought. That said, the question is a valid one and, in the attempt to answer it, a great deal of valuable information comes to light. Fantastic work and admirable thoroughness displayed by both parties; this is indeed an important conversation. They do so much to bring the dialogue to students in a way that can easily be engaged with and facilitates a deeper understanding of the mystical traditions.

[debbygrupp]

Introvertive as opposed to extravertive mystical experiences show many differences. Another good point to bring up would be that two mystics may experience the same phenomena but articulate their findings much differently, much like two people experiencing the perception of the same apple. There may be a difference in the perception of the actual colour. We can even go so far as to say that one may like that particular shade of green, while the other may detest it. I think you're right Zevi regarding the universality of the inherent qualities of the introvertive mystical experience. You are both amazing individuals. Much love! Lechaim!!

[thestevepbrady]

Fascinating discussion guys. Opened up a lot of different topics I need to get educated on.

[BeforeTheCause]

1 year ago, says YouTube. I wonder how I missed this one. Appreciate you both. ❤️ 🙏