Lawyer compares cost of continuing D&D to Pathfinder and other RPGs (Rules Lawyer)

If you've hesitated from trying other systems because you put considerable money and time into D&D, the new edition is the best time to switch! I do a side-by-side calculation of the cost of continuing D&D vs. Pathfinder and debunk the myth that PF is "too hard to learn."

"5 reasons why you should stop playing WOTC's D&D" (Dave Thaumavore):

0:00 Intro
1:40 WOTC on its best behavior during edition change
3:52 WOTC hiring Monetization Designer for "D&D digital" "live service game"
4:43 Cost of continuing D&D
6:15 Hasbro NOT putting all its rules in Creative Commons
10:11 Cost of Pathfinder
15:31 Final side-by-side comparison
17:42 Easy-to-learn other RPGs
19:39 Pathfinder is easy to learn!
23:57 Final thoughts

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[TheRulesLawyerRPG]

ADDITIONS/ERRATA (many thanks to commenters):
-It bears repeating that WOTC must be on its BEST behavior about monetizing during the edition change! And yes I'm aware of the new job posting for an AI Designer... I plan a companion vid addressing the shortcomings of 5.5E and what they show about Hasbro's priorities.
-Because Pathfinder sells PDFs and supports charities, about once a year they put out several dozens of PDFs including its core books out as a "Humble Bundle" for a very low price, e.g. $13-$25.
-If you have had to buy 3rd Party Products to improve your D&D game or improve its published adventures, that is much less necessary with PF2, which many will tell you "works out of the box."
-I'd argue that D&D has a continuous "time and energy cost, " because of time adjudicating rules, filling-in missing systems (e.g. magic item prices), needing to homebrew monsters, etc.
-You need to spend $5 on Pathbuilder to stat out an animal companion or similar "2nd character."

[mogscugg]

I had to pay $150 for the core books to get into dnd back in 2015

I paid $25 for a humble bundle that had six pf2e adventures, all three core books, and all three bestiaries

[Zhunix]

I appreciate you doing the good work of calling out WotC's bullcrap in a non-inflammatory way, supported by data.

[PaweMateuszBytner]

You mentioned it somewhat in the video and you other videos, we said it thousand times in our community, but it can't be stressed enough that the matter of complexity of PF2 vs DnD5 isn't really in favor of the latter. The shortest we can sum it up is that PF2 has meaningful complexity while DnD5 has a mess.

Basic rules, by which I mean things like how d20 checks work, how we get out numbers for those checks, the combat encounter routine, etc - all those are simpler in PF2.

Action economy is the most prominent example - while DnD5 attempted to simplify the economy from 3e, the positive impact was minimal and they made casting spells more confusing at the same time. In 3.5 if I had any means of casting two spells in the same round, like quickening one of them or just having swift-action spell in the first place, there was absolutely no problem with that. So while the whole boilerplate involved (spell DCs calculation, quickened spell level adjustment, etc) was more complex, the most basic part of my interaction with the game of choosing my action in the heat of the battle was unhampered. In term of combat action economy rule sets alone, between PF2, DnD5, DnD4 and DnD3, 5th edition barely wins only against the 3rd.

For D20 checks in PF2 it goes like this: roll d20, add your proficiency and occasional modifiers (which for the most part are constant throughout the encounter), compare with the target to find your degree of success. On 1 or 20 move your result one step, if you have some specific abilities on higher levels those also might adjust the result by not allowing critfails or autorcriting successes. Action you took tells you what to do on each result, with most of them being attacks or basic saves which work all the same. Well, you can't exactly say it is nothing to remember, but the routine is regular. And it is not really more complex than DnD5, which also has proficiency, modifiers and crits, but the framework isn't as defined and the complexity added in PF2 makes it more predictable and gives designers more opportunities to make cool things within the established framework.

Proficiency bonus is straightforward character lvl + 2 per rank, with 0 or bare lvl with certain perks for untrained character. Is it more complex than character lvl div 5 + 2, summed up into a table inflating your book volume? Not really. But it offers something more anyway, making mundane encounters trivial, all things are more predictable and proficiency ranks are utilized as prerequisites for example.

Focus points unifying most of the limited-use spell-like class powers within one system is a great improvement over previous edition and the competition.

Multiclassing is... different. While 3e/5e system of getting levels in a class has its charms, it has balance issues that those systems try to alleviate via additional rules anyway. PF2 incorporates multiclassing within archetype system. If you engage with the game to the point you want to try multiclassing, neither of this systems should be above you.

Pathfinder requires you to choose more things from the start when you create or level up your character, expanding your options exponentially with each new book. That's the moment where it is actually measurably heavier, but it is still meaningful complexity and not just some noise. After you choose your feats and subclasses, which should be less than 1% of your game, you are left with robust system that is not hard to play at all

[lunasophia]

Okay, I just... I cannot warn people enough about "recurrent spending". Ronald is right to compare this to video game preorders and it doesn't stop there. All the awful psychologically manipulative microtransactions you see--in everything from mobile games to the latest big "AAA" title--is all based on this. There are presentations that CEOs of companies like EA have given about "turning players into payers". This is BAD. This is only the beginning and it's going to get so, so much worse.

[Minandreas]

This is a great video and one of the things that always blows the mind of 5E players I see that I actually get to try out P2. They cannot wrap their brain around Archives of Nethys and Pathbuilder and the idea that they can play the game, with maximum convenience, completely free and legally.

[norcalbowhunter]

You don’t have to buy the new edition of D&D. Like people still play 3.5 edition, I’m sure a lot of players who got into 5e will be hesitant to cross over into the newer edition.

That said, you do have to deal with WoTC cutting off support for 5e though, which I’m assuming they will do in an effort to drive people to the new edition. But with all the third part companies out there (probably why they tried to kill the ogl) this isn’t that big of a concern.

Still though, pf2e is much better and worth the jump even if you are thinking about sticking to 5e.

Pf2e runs so much like a more flushed out 5e that it surprises me that people want to condemn it for being hard to switch too. Sure the rules are different but once they click, and they will click, they CLICK. That was my journey at least.

[StephenHutchison]

I use Pathbuilder 2e and I have had no problem accessing dual archetypes, free dedication, etc. without paying money. If I wanted to create and build a world that could run via their interface, it would cost me a small fee. This is basically a VTT without the flashy visuals, which could be done on another platform.

When I saw Pathfinder at a game con a decade or so in the past, I did not love it. When I was dragged to P2e by my weekly game group, it was mostly "some character classes are hard" and "the action economy is inflexible" ... but once I managed those, it was SO MUCH EASIER than the 5E stuff. It was UNLEARNING CURVE rather than Learning Curve for me.

[crankysmurf]

Remember you don't need WotC to play D&D. There are plenty of third party publishers and older edition books to satisfy your D&D needs.

[firebornliger]

An edition change is probably the easiest time to get people to try new systems.
Which is probably why WotC/Hasbro are trying so hard to say it isn't an edition change.

My group has had everyone in the GM seat at one point, and so, we're a little more open to new systems. We just did a one shot in a system called Outgunned that was fairly light, and aimed to be a table-top version of 80s Action Movies.
They're a nice change of pace, and it was a fun session.

[quantus]

Nice video! Yes, one of the biggest advantages in my opinion from a cost perspective are 1) The ability to purchase PDFs for Pathfinder, and 2) The ability to use those PDFs with that free PF module for Foundry.

Wish Paizo had decided to only do 3 core books (instead of 4 core books), i.e. Player Core 1, Player Core 2, and GM Core 1. Not really sure why they did a GM Core 2 book -- fine to do it but call it something else, i.e. don't call it a "Core" book.

[prtendr-]

Foundry is free after initial cost but you have to have your computer on for others to connect and edit their characters but you can pay for a server so they have access but it's not necessary

[Chadius]

Wow, I still remember when D&D 3rd edition costs $90 to get the PHB, DMG and MM. And they used to let DriveThru RPG sell the PDF copies!

[numimio]

Pathbuilder is weird because you literally have to buy it to gain access to the companion section which is literally the entirety of summoner.

[LeahLuciB]

I have the Kingmaker 2e book, and I paid for Foundry versin of Kingmaker. Did I do something wrong?

[theprofessional]

22:15 where is this "D&D college" you speak of? :)

[Drasai]

Never come across the term “splatbook” before. Does this just refer to all the extra rulebooks, like Rage of Elements or Call of the Wild?

[garrickstangle]

Basic Fantasy has always been free in PDF, and cheap if you want hardcopy. If you can't have fun with 4 races and 4 classes, having 20 of each is not going to help you.

[DarkadeTV]

After two years trying I just got into pathfinder, and the way I did it was buying the book. For me the zero money approach of going with AoN/pathbuilder didn't worked at all, the game was unapproachable with just those resources. it seemed too big, too complex, and I think it's because the pure mechanics are decontextualized from their intention in those sites. Maybe they are enough if you know someone to guide you, but it wasn't for me coming from the "indie scene" and not knowing anybody. It's amazing that these resources exist but pathfinder, more than any other game, highlights for me that games are not their mechanics. Now I'm looking forward to playing pf for the first time and even running it

[willw]

"Might be a good time to try a new system!"
Me: Still using Pathfinder 1e because it's the best version of 3.5 which is the easiest modded version of D&D ever made (archetypes yo).
Me: Also has half a dozen other new TTRPG systems (none of which are 5e or P2) that I've been meaning to learn and bought books for but haven't had time to try because I keep playing Pathfinder 1e.