Flat Overhand Knot - the European Knot of Death

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ABOUT THIS VIDEO:
There are people who say the flat overhand (aka EDK) is dangerous. Others use it all the time without worry. So, is it safe? In what applications is it appropriate? In this video we will take a look.

Drop your thoughts in the comments section and let’s turn this video into a conversation - your insight might just be the highlight of my day!

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[speterlewis]

I have 20+ years of guiding experience, was an AMGA certified rock instructor, and served five years as the AMGA executive Director, and I want to commend you on your excellent analysis and presentation. This video will save lives.

[GaryLArnell]

Great information. I didn't think the stacked overhand would roll and I didn't realize the double overhand was 25% stronger than the stacked. Very helpful!

[dirtfarmers]

Discovered your videos while researching the VT prusik, and am really enjoying all of them - great info, clearly and precisely explained. Thanks!

[damonnomad]

Your videos are so clear and well organized! I would love to see a video on single rope ascension if it ever fits into your timeline.

[petesmith]

Great to see Grants testing and our double overhand being shared. We have used this for some years as the pull down knot of choice with good reason.

[misterlarryb]

Great presentation as always, Rich! Would love to see pull tests compare your half-double-fisherman's dressed double OH, and the two-half-hitch (hope that's a correct description) dressed double OH that's also out there, a.k.a. Gibb's knot. Possibly two different knots with the same name- LOL, like that never happens! But however you tie it, you can dress the wraps either way. I suspect the two-half hitch dressed one (Gibb's) may be less - but still adequately - strong but easier to untie after loading.

[themountainknights]

Wonderful explaination 👍. Thankyou for this video.

[ayazmuzik]

Well that was straightforward and clear.

[traceteboda]

I love your enthusiasm Rich!! Hope to see you out in a canyon one day!! I've learned a lot from your videos and enjoy them very much!

[climberly]

I'm with you on the double overhand. Never had it roll on me even once. and hey, if your worried you can always tie an edk as a back up. Though I'm amazed by how few people use it. All the time when I tie that people look at it and ask, "what the hell is that?!" lol

[DaOndee]

The double overhand knot is nice but I found it relatively hard to untie after it has been loaded.

[jack_batterson]

Excellent video! I was trained to NEVER use the EDK, but I appreciate your video and perspective. Thanks!

[peacefulteacher]

Hey cousin. You have a great voice for teaching in a video. Who would've guessed?! :) Nice work. T

[geopietro]

Rich, very informative. Interesting and practical. Thank you. You recommended using a rethreaded figure 8 bend to tie two ropes together (say, when you rappel with the load on the knotted side) because it sustains loads along its' major axis and that it retains 60-70% of the strength of the rope. Makes sense. The table near the end of the video says a double overhead knot breaks at 55% of the rope's strength. With a 5, 000 lb canyoneering rope, the figure 8 breaks at 3, 000-3, 500 whereas the double EDK at 2, 750. Even though the figure 8 is stronger, is the difference significant in the field (i.e. canyoneering) and when considering that the EDK has less chance of getting stuck when pulled (retrieved after rappel)? Thank you very much.

[IcanhearClemFandango]

Thanks for the great videos. In another video you mentioned using a butterfly knot to isolate a core shot in a rope. I also found some research showing that butterfly knots are some of the best in terms of strength reduction. My question is, has using a pseudo butterfly to connect two ropes been used in this manner? As if the two tails meeting represented a weak point in a damaged rope? I'd be interested in your thoughts and maybe testing if possible. Thanks.

[mussaranya]

I always use the double 8 knot to tie two ropes for abseiling down. Only once in 25 years of climbing I got a knot caught, but it was in a rock wall heavely eroded by exokarst, so it got caught inside a big lapiaz (in fact any knot would have).
But what I see with horror in your video is the way you pass the belay rope (I don't know how to say "cordelette" in english) throught the bolts!!! Never, never, never pass a rope directly through a bolt, use always a metallic ring or carabiner. Ropes and bolts must never be together, cos the bolt can cut a rope like a knife.
That's why in Europe all the belays in sport climbing and all the abseiling belays in multipitch routes are equipped with rings. And that's why we always have 2-3 maillon rapide in our harness, so we can abandon them in non-equiped belays (it's cheaper than a carabiner). Of course we use UIAA certified maillon rapide, not ironmongery ones.

[matteomelandri]

I'm french and I can tell you that we didn't do this we do a second knot to evict rolling and the eight knots isn't good becaus he can be stuck when you make it down. The "death knot" is difficult to stuck

[jeffm]

Rich, maybe I am missing something, but when you say the "EDK will become more of a block" 1:15 if using only one side of the rope, does that assume you are using a small enough rap ring or quicklink so the knot won't slip through (sounds like pearabiners and even Ds are out of the question)? Seems a little risky, like it might pop through with even a little unexpected dynamic loading.

[curvenut]

How easy is it to untie the double flat overhang after , for example, 10 piches rappel ??
Since it is like a double fisherman, I suspect it to be hard to untie after multiple rappel

[jeffm]

The double figure 8 bend (different from the follow through) is also a good choice instead of the double fisherman. Easier to untie.