Wisdom, Purpose, and the Search for Coherence with John Vervaeke | TGS 158

(Conversation recorded on November 25th, 2024)

The crises that our world is facing seem to be constantly growing, leading to enormous and devastating systemic effects across the globe. Yet, the ripples of the human predicament are also reaching our personal lives in unexpected ways – through chronic loneliness, loss of coherence to reality, and a widespread feeling of insignificance.

How do we begin to navigate the crisis of meaning that seems to accompany modernity, exacerbated by feeling out of control in the broader world we live in?

In today’s conversation, Nate is joined by professor of psychology and cognitive scientist John Vervaeke to discuss the state of ‘the meaning crisis’, including the social and cultural contexts that have fostered such pervasive loss of connection and purpose. Vervaeke also unpacks the key practices that he and others have found most effective in regaining wisdom and direction while living in the modern era.

What can cognitive science tell us about the role of spirituality and religion in living a life that is rich in relationships and clarity? How do flow states, rituals, and lifelong learning contribute to strengthening mental health and fostering adaptability? And perhaps most importantly, how might reconnecting with a sense of humility, wisdom, and shared humanity help guide us toward a more meaningful, collective existence?

About John Vervaeke:

John Vervaeke, Ph.D. is an award-winning professor at the University of Toronto in the departments of psychology, cognitive science, and Buddhist psychology. He currently teaches courses in the Psychology department on thinking and reasoning, cognitive development, and higher cognitive processes.

John is also the director of the Cognitive Science program where he teaches additional courses on Cognitive Science and consciousness, wherein he emphasizes 4E (embodied, embedded, enacted, and extended) models of cognition and consciousness.

Additionally, John is the director of the Consciousness and Wisdom Studies Laboratory. He is also the co-author of the book Zombies in Western Culture: A 21st Century Crisis, which integrates Psychology and Cognitive Science to address the meaning crisis in Western society.

He is the author and presenter of the YouTube series Awakening from the Meaning Crisis.

Show Notes and More:

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00:00 - Introduction
02:41 - The Meaning Crisis
06:57 - Spiritual Bypassing and Conspirituality
14:05 - Meaning in the Past
16:31 - Cultural vs Individual Meaning
21:45 - Adaptive Function of Mystical Experiences
27:53 - Humanity’s Best Technologies
30:44 - Collective Wisdom
34:16 - Flow States
38:44 - Humanity’s Potential
42:41 - Defining Meaning
46:11 - Religion and Economic Growth
54:49 - Contemplating Death
57:20 - Individual vs Collective Learning
59:46 - Transcendence
01:01:33 - Scaling Meaning
01:12:33 - Our Place in Time
01:15:45 - Human Cleverness and Foolishness
01:24:28 - Certainty
01:26:28 - Ecology of Practices
01:28:11 - Closing Questions

[treefrog]

At the age of 26 I found myself upon a 30-foot sailboat in the South Pacific, a thousand miles from land, surrounded by nothing but ocean. It was a clear, cloudless night, the stars were ablaze like few have ever seen, and the seas were calm. At some point the Cosmos itself, in all of its' infinite glory, invaded my 30-foot world. In an instant I realized what a truly unique and special place the Earth is amidst that endless void. That was almost 50 years ago. I am getting "goose bumps" as a write about and recall that moment. The Earth is such a unique and magical place. It terrifies me to see what we are doing to it. In my lifetime I have heard people scoff at Carl Sagan's depiction of Earth as a "pale blue dot". I am here to tell you that it IS!

[anthonytroia]

An entire podcast could be platformed on interviewing Vervaeke. I cant get enough of this stuff.

[Jagbiz]

Nate, like you I learned an important perspective in the discussion about rationality, intelligence, and connection to wisdom. Super insight, consistent with wisdom, not always, but being associated with age. You thanked John and I thank you for the discussion and its availability. Best wishes.

[patrickmclaughlin]

An incredible conversation between two of the people who give me the most hope in these strange times.

Thank you both!

[frictionhitch]

I have always asked myself what/who I will think about on my deathbed. A mass was recently found in my lung. I am ok. I went home and will continue living the way I do for as long as I can. I feel that in some ways I have found the answer to the question of Eternal Recurrence for me.
"Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence is that if you had to live your life over and over again exactly the same way would you feel joy or dread? Even with all the pain I would do it again for I now know who I am.

[pookah]

May it be so:, all the scales and the ancestors of all the scales who have given beauty to the earth send energy to swell the tide of sane reverent treatment of all life.

[colorfulbookmark]

Dr.Vervaeke and Dr.Hagens are affecting people to feel happiness^^ Thank you for presenting great conversation for people.

[anakissedboyle]

Between us we’re a genius,
I will come back again to this and take to friends . There are keys here as we can all see, opening doors, thank you,

[polymathpark]

I've been saying this for years, nuance and humility are the key to wisdom!

[nathanielgraham]

I've spent my life chasing the flow state by surfing, MTB, snowboarding, skateboarding etc. This discussion has been deeply informative. Wu Wei everyday in everyway!

[pmckijs]

I have long explained to friends that no one is actually afraid of zombies - we are the zombies. Like zombies we are the ones craving community but trapped instead in wage slavery, social media and repetitive days.

[claraklimovsky]

Dear Nate, I’ve just finished watching/listening this episode for the second time (I’m sure there will be more views soon), and I’m astonished. Thank you so much for this conversation. I’m writing from the very global South, where all these topics seem so foreign to our daily reality. Again, thanks a lot, for this episode, and all the others, of course. 💜

[harveytheparaglidingchaser]

That was great. " Being connected and wise is not optional" my motto for 2025

[vexy]

Nate, if you're going down this road, defintely get William Irvine on the show to talk about Stoicism. So many practical applications for the troubled times/bend or break moment ahead. Thank you both for a wonderful and passionate conversation. You'll have to get John back for that follow-up conversation.

Fans of TGS would do well to seek out the conversation between John, and past guests Iain McGilchrist and Daniel Schmachtenberger!

[NateKinch]

Seeing Nate shift over the years has been really amazing. The moment where he expressed awe and reverence towards what we might well be capable of, yet held that in living tension with the utter despair he felt in relation to what we have done, where we are and where we are probabilistically headed. Really beautiful moment. Thank you both.

[fransiscocampos]

THANKS, Nate.. This man contributes meaningfully to the whole picture, for those cultural aspects that we as westerns, want it or not, we belong to. Brilliant logic, spot on, particularly on current western attitudes, or mental framings -from the 'new age' roots to the more recent denialist reductionism, within and beyond the paradigm of the algorithm. The super-organism's algorithm, if you will, and in your own terms, and specifically in the scope of the so called 'social networks'

IMPORTANTE !

[ErnestoEduardoDobarganes]

And I wasn't sure what I was going to listen to this morning.

[frictionhitch]

I think that if you want to become a proper steward for your land you need to sleep under her stars, go on walks with her, admire her beauty, and then court her properly. When your land becomes your lover you will surely love her and treat her right.

[HellYesLetsDoItNow]

The flow of this conversation is a peak experience which is awe-inspiring and helping me transcend the insanity that has enslaved society

[FermiDeck]

A great conversation! Thank you again for another amazing guest and dialogue.