Michelle Stone's History Of Joseph Smith And Polygamy

Michelle Stone is a leading voice in a movement stating that Joseph Smith did not initiate or practice polygamy. We address President Nelson and President Oaks' multiple sealings, the succession of Brigham Young from Joseph Smith, historical documents, and, of course, the scriptures.

I do not agree with Michelle's conclusions, but as a Latter-day Saint cultural dynamic, the person and the topic interest me and I'm glad she came on the show.

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#CwicShow #lds

[CwicShow]

The beliefs and attitudes of the RLDS/Community of Christ church are seeping into Latter-day circles. We can see this in three major areas: polygamy denial, a fallen Brigham Young, and Temples are not necessary. In this interview, you can see from the more tense portions that if I argued a side, this would have devolved into a barking episode. I wanted to let Michelle talk and clarify her position. I think she did that on some issues but was vague on others. She seems to pick and choose what to believe and what to disregard based on her framework of polygamy denial. Several stretches are made with Abraham, David, Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young. Her "spirit of deception" argument was disturbing. A square peg does not fit into a round hole.

I do really appreciate her coming on the show and studying things out, though I disagree with her conclusions.

For those of you supporting Michelle and accusing me of deleting comments, there are three things that happen:
1) Spamming—Some of you have resorted to spamming in response to comments. I found one example where there were over 28 of the same post. YouTube automatically blocks spamming, thank goodness.
2) As you will see in my community guidelines, links are not allowed. There is good reason for this based on the topics we tackle here. By the way, several posts with links from Brian Hales and Don Bradley also didn't make it through.
3) This is for you of the despicable fringe. Several posts are held by YouTube due to vitriolic language and profanity. All of this was targeted at President Nelson, the church, and commenters with a couple to me. This is not Reddit! I create an open forum for thought, but not for toxic content. And lastly, if you are going to preach against the church or demean President Nelson, it won't get through. That is my rule.

[charinabottae]

Between this, gay marriage, gender confusion, malevolent compassion, etc, it's no wonder president Nelson prophesied that “In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.”

It's interesting to me how quickly the prophetic nature of that statement is being revealed. But he also did say to not delay, that time is running out.

[radicalkelly]

Michelle seems like a thoughtful, kind person. My heart goes out to her for what she experienced in 2020 and 2021.

[Mike-rtvp]

I love how the Virgin birth, the command for Abraham to sacrifice his son doesn't phase the average believer. But stuff like this becomes a stumbling block, why, because the impacts what the listener wants for themselves. If we listen to total selflessness, it would not impact us. We would trust that this and many other things that we would have a hard time understanding would work out with a loving God. I find it baffling that many people are not outraged with the idea that in other churches there is a belief, that people who lived and died without knowing the Savior just automatically go to hell. That should outrage people but often doesn't. But will get outraged at this. Human genius never ceases to amaze.

[dougknighton]

I'm in the camp that believes Joseph was not a polygamist.

I feel like you can't PROVE Joseph was or was not practicing polygamy. But, I do think the bulk of the evidence, combined with reason and logic, support that he was not.

In no particular order.

1. There are no known children from any women other than Emma.
2. Joseph's verifiable, contemporary statements opposed polygamy. Condemned polygamy.
3. The Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:24) clearly condemns what was done by David and Solomon having many wives as an abomination. D&C 132:38-39 is in direct conflict with what is said in the Book of Mormon stating that David and Solomon were given their multiple wives by God.
4. The original D&C 101 specifically addressed the issue, the accusation, of polygamy being leveled at the Church. That section says one man and one woman only while either are living. No additional wives or husbands while married to another.
5. Brigham and Emma were at odds. Emma maintained that Joseph never had any other woman. Brigham, in the 36th Semi-Annual Conference of the Church, Oct 1866, said, among other things, that, "Emma Smith is one of the damnedest liars I know of on this earth". He continued, accusing her of attempting to murder Joseph twice by poisoning him. Does this make sense? Does this seem consistent with the love letters and affection that was known to have existed between them? Or, does it make more sense that Emma knew Brigham better than any of us today know Brigham and that she knew he was up to no good. Brigham had to discredit Emma in front of his followers without discrediting Joseph.
6. What my heart tells me. I have done a lot of praying and soul searching on this. I might be wrong in my conclusions, but I feel in my heart and in my mind, based on the available information and my prayers, that Polygamy is not, and was not, from God.

[stephaniesantiago]

How can you say that the original 101 “one man one wife” makes room for polygamous marriage when it literally says this….


….”Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband, neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband. All children are bound by law to obey their parents; and to influence them to embrace any religious faith, or be baptized, or leave their parents without their consent, is unlawful and unjust. We believe that husbands, parents and masters who exercise control over their wives, children, and servants and prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin…..”


Women were also encouraged to leave their husbands (even members of the church) to be in polygamous marriages if they can find someone with “higher keys.” What about these sources??

[evamat]

What if she is right? What if Brigham was a fallen prophet? Worse, what if he was no prophet at all; what if he was a usurper?

Would God‘s plans be frustrated? would the entire church be false?

I don’t think so. God‘s plans cannot be frustrated. The Book of Mormon remains true, no matter what. And this church remains Christ’s Church, even if imperfect, even if damaged, even if wrong in certain key instances.

I know this much. The Book of Mormon says only bad things about polygamy, but it has a whole lot to say about the “remnant of Jacob.“

Jesus Christ himself, after the resurrection, and after his brief sermon on the mountain, spoke about nothing but the remnant of Jacob. That is the focus of the Book of Mormon.

And it was pretty much close to the sole focus of Joseph Smith. In the fall of 1844, he planned to travel to the Rocky Mountains to find a place to live with the Lamanites, who are among the Native Americans.

But he died, obviously, and then Brigham Young came to the Rocky Mountains, but he did not live peacefully with the Lamanites.

The church took a hard turn into apostasy when it took on polygamy. In my view, we barely survived it. It’s a real mercy that the Lord arranged to have polygamy quashed in this church. It’s one of the proofs to me, in fact, that the Lord does direct this church.

But he can do it only through imperfect humans. We do the best we can.

[permaprepper]

I am 65 years old, came of age in the 70’s. My dad was heavily engrossed in the controversy of blacks and the priesthood, on the side of getting rid of the ban and spoke openly against the practice. He told stories about how the subject nearly tore our ward apart. Lived in Granger, Utah. He, along with others that agree with him, was called deceived and an apostate, and treated very much the way Michelle is treated today. Most people were not willing to consider any other point of view. Then one day in June of 1978, he was no longer an apostate but there were still a lot of hard feelings and my family moved shortly after that. I wonder how many people commenting here has actually looked up any pieces of evidence that Michelle has offered and actually read for yourselves what Joseph wrote and said. So much is there for all to see in the Joseph Smith papers online for free. I agree that there are many things open for interpretation but Michelle’s evidence is as solid as any of the evidence provided on the other side of the issue. More compelling in my opinion having actually looked up and verified the evidence. But ya’ll can just wait for the prophet, apostles, and academics to do your thinking for you. But God works through the weak, simple and humble. And the phrase “every accredited historian agrees…” is just so pharisaical.

[PeterBrownscouts]

If we can believe Joseph lied to protect the Church, why can't we believe that Brigham did the same? He made earlier statements that he introduced polygamy, not Joseph. Later, due to the persecutions over polygamy they needed to frame it as a Joseph doctrine because the Democrats told them it would make a stronger constitutional case. They lied later on to save the Church.

Same argument. Same logic. It doesn't have to hurt belief in the modern Church.

[rayettacroft]

Hagar absolutely was a slave. See Galatians 4:22-23 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

[christinebuck]

It's clear to see that Satan is using this topic to divide the saints and he's being successful.

[christhompson]

One thing that people don't clarify enough is dynastic sealings. A lot of people equate sealing with marriage, but a large part of the confusion is the fact the Joseph was practicing dynastic sealings, the same as one person might be sealed to their parents to create a "web" of the exalting ordinance. Not marriage!

[kencard]

Mosiah 11: 2 “he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And did cause his people to commit sin.” Did Brigham Young read this and believe it? NO.
Listen to the Prophet Jacob: “This people [if we liken the scriptures to ourselves in these last days, what did Brigham Young do?] begin to wax in iniquity [starting with a lie]; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son” (Book of Mormon | Jacob 2:23).
“Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.” (Book of Mormon | Jacob 2:24)!

[tennisgirl]

Several years ago I read the book Putting on Christ and felt very compelled to seek the face of Christ. I spent a lot of time in the scriptures, the temple and in prayer. In asking God what he wanted me learn polygamy kept coming up. I had been fine with polygamy, wasn't excited to practice it, but had excepted it. So finally I started a very long and intense study of it and was very shocked at what I learned. I had assumed God wanted me to study it because he was going to bring it back. What I learned was the exact opposite. I no longer believe God ever commanded anyone to ever practice it and I no longer believe Joseph Smith ever practiced it. I had a very strong witness in the temple and also had a very special dream with Joseph and Emma explaining that they need to be exonerated!
I'm still and active temple going member. My testimony is actually stronger!

[JojoD]

What Michelle says about a woman not giving her whole heart to her husband because she is afraid she will have to share him later. I have struggled immensely with this throughout an otherwise very happy marriage.

[bbbarham]

Super glad you allowed Michelle to give her perspective! Even if you disagree with her is important to hear both sides.

[Tmesquite]

I for one choose to believe Joseph. Everything I know about him reveals him as a moral, righteous, and honest man. If God commanded him to practice polygamy, he wouldn’t have denied it, let alone go slinking around behind his wife’s back for trysts with teenage girls and married women. He would have proclaimed it openly just like he did the First Vision. Remember what he said about that:

“I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

How do you reconcile his declaration on the first vision with the claims of his cowardice, lies, and of sneaking behind Emm’a back when it comes to practicing polygamy? It doesn’t fit with his character. He wasn’t a coward or a hypocrite, and the certainly wasn’t a liar. He tried to root out polygamy wherever he found it in the church, even excommunicating those who practiced it. It would make him a hypocrite as well as a liar to do this if he was practicing it privately.

Michelle, has done considerable research on this topic of polygamy. She goes to the original source documents and has a solid understanding of this period of church history. I am saddened and dismayed at the hateful comments that are pointed at her. In my opinion it doesn’t show LDS members in a good light. It is amazing to me how people who proclaim to follow Jesus, can be so hateful and vengeful.

[kencard]

Why did the LDS Church change this word, “fathers”? Are you aware that Jacob 3:5 says: "for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father” (singular) [It should say "fathers" (plural) but the LDS Church removed “fathers” in the 1981 Printing going forward] “—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, ” [In the 1835 Book of Mormon it says "Fathers" because the commandment to have only one wife was the commandment going all the way back to Adam and Eve and forward to this present day, [all the fathers]. All past, present, and future generations are to have one wife]. This has always been the law of God in a marriage relationship. (Book of Mormon | Jacob 1-3)!

[nadingos]

When I went to the Lord in prayer many years ago, asking about polygamy, the answer I received was to read what Joseph said about it. Everything in the church materials said that he supported polygamy. It wasn’t until two years ago that I learned that Brigham Young supervised the revision of Joseph’s words, condemning polygamy, to say the exact opposite. Joseph condemned polygamy at every opportunity. I have collected 13 instances showcasing this, although a 14th just emerged last week when Joseph’s copy of the BOM was shown publicly (Thanks Jeremy Hoop) and he wrote in the margins of Jacob 2 “one wife”. Thanks to the Joseph Smith Papers Project, I can now find the original documents and read for myself what Joseph and Hyrum consistently taught. Honestly, it is a lot to process through and like Michelle, I don’t have all of the answers about the temple or the LDS Church leadership, but I am grateful for the answer to a heart felt prayer. I now stand with Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma. God help us all!!!

[Whnthwickdrul]

It doesn't matter what they did in the past, The Book of Mormon is for our day and God has explicitly given the command to have one wife and concubines ye shall have none.

And God via Jacob, "Thus saith the Lord" has addressed the ancient practices of old,
"26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.". Jacob 2:26. So any of the old people if their gross criminal practices of many wives are not the product of the great and abominable church of the devil getting hold of the record before spreading it throughout the nations is a moot point, God doesn't want it happening!