Gichin Funakoshi Might HATE The Shotokan We See Today...

❓What do you think about these changes in history?

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📕My Background📕
Name: Yusuke Nagano
Birthplace: Kawasaki, Japan
Belt Grade: 2 Dan
As a Competitor: 2 Years @ Local Dojo in USA, 7 Years @ Keio Mita Karate Club
As a Coach: 4 Years @ Keio Mita Karate Club, 2 Years @ Karate Dojo waKu
Style of Coaching: The Fusion of Simple Concept and Logical Breakdown

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What I covered in this video:
karate, shotokan, karate shotokan, shotokan karate, karate sensei, karate tutorial, karate how to, karate dojo waku, yusuke nagano, sensei seth, karate nerd, jesse karate, jesse enkamp, karate japan, Japanese karate, karate kid, kumite

#karate, #shotokan, #karateshotokan, #shotokankarate, #karatesensei, #karatetutorial, #karatehowto, #karatedojowaku #yusukenagano #senseiseth #karatenerd #jessekarate #jesseenkamp #karatejapan #japanesekarate #kumite #karatekid #kata #karatenearme #karatebelts

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[KarateDojowaKu]

❓What do you think about these changes in history?

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[captainbeaver_man]

Loved the shout out to TKD being rooted in Shotokan. Some TKD organizations ignore this.

[peterchase]

The change I regret is that the self defence understanding of kata was to a large extent lost. Because modern karate is mostly driven by sport competition. The research and development done by Iain Abernethy, Pat McCarthy the truth about kata and actual results driven self defence practice.

[Ben-bsqv]

I started learning a Karate style 'derived' from Shotokan as a child in New Zealand. I travelled to Okinawa to practice Shorinji-ryu for a time in 2016 and this challenged my previous learning of long stances.

As some others in this chat have alluded to, long stances make progress to grappling very difficult. Kata like Wanshu, Sesan, Goju shi ho, all have transition points where one can enter into grappling, and are taught to be close-range Kata in Okinawa.

I am now learning Japanese jiu-jitsu in parallel with my Karate practice to identify and bring meaning to these transitions. Therefore I like that shorter stances allow faster movement, and I like that close fighting opens up for control grappling (as well as building bravery).

If grappling is taken by away from the old Kata there are holes created in the bunkai.

[sparrow]

I recently stumbled upon this channel.
I studied Shotokan for a couple years, when I was younger.
Listening to him talk brings everything flooding back!!
It's nice to see a young person have so much respect for history, while recognizing the benefits of modernizing some things.
GREAT channel!!

[carlosthorbourne]

I was taught that the deep stances were primarily to build muscles and stamina. I use deep stances when I practice kata but higher more "natural" stance when practicing kumite. The strength from low stances gives me speed when I'm moving quickly in kumite. It was Funakoshi who once wrote "lower stances for beginners, higher stances for advanced."

[felipeavalos]

This video gave me a ride to the past, in the 70's I trained Goju Ryu under a very traditional teacher and very oriented to self defense, he emphasized speed, and above all kicks below the waist with a long list of places. "Do you want to kick the face? kick the legs first" he used to say. I miss him.
Thank you for the memories @Karate Dojo waKu

[tonygallagher]

For me, the important point is the one made by Gichin Funakoshi in Karate Do Kyohan. He said something about kata being a training exercise, and not moving like that in a real fight. What Gigo Funakoshi said is quite revealing. I'm not sure I trust someone who discards older wisdom, just because it is old.

[ruiseartalcorn]

Very interesting! Many thanks :) Personally, I prefer the old stuff, however I can see your point re certain modern improvements :)

[MrGichinfunakoshi]

Agree 100%! 34 years Shotokan practitioner! Best regards from Canary Islands, Spain

[PartTimeJedi]

I train in Traditional Moo Duk Kwan TKD and I see our long stances and hip movement in the updated old Shotokan style. Also many of our forms are basically Shotokan i.e Bassai

[stefanschleps]

Thank you for asking what we think about such changes. I deeply appreciate this history of Gigo. I began the study of Shotokahn in 1975. My teacher had a third degree black belt in Shito-Ryu and a third degree black belt in Shorin-Ryu and a fifth degree black belt in Shotokahn. His main teacher in Shotokahn was Hidetaka Nishiyama. While teaching me he returned to Japan and earned his sixth degree. The last degree one could earn at the time from the JKA. He began training in 1940.
Classes with Master Romano were usually three hours long, held three times a week. About four months into our training shortly before he left for Japan to be tested for his sixth degree. He showed up in class with a book on Karate from a different teacher from a different school. The book was entitled "This is Karate" by Mas Oyama. He praised the work in this book as being very important to all men who love karate. But I and the other student didn't want to look at it at all. When he asked us why? We said that it was because it made us feel disloyal to him, and to Shotokahn. We were young, I was only 16 at the time. He chastised us for being closed minded and encouraged us that day to study everything possible while still maintaining the practices that he shared with us. I've never forgotten that, or any other lesson, from that venerable man. He opened mind while he taught me to discipline my body.
I have seen many times over the last 45 years students and teachers alike passing on information and technique which are poorly explained, and poorly understood, and sometimes worthless. Almost entirely based on a misplaced sense of reverence for that which came before. I am currently a teacher of TCMA. My teacher, and his teacher, who are thankfully still with us, have encouraged me since the beginning of my studies with them, to also keep an open mind. To use what is useful to me. To make the art my own. To disregard, not the form, but my ignorance and biases.
Changes are good only when they are truly useful to the person learning and or teaching. As we move through the arts our perspective must broaden, and our understanding must deepen. Or our branch of the art will whither and die. I tell my students to teach honestly who they learned from. And to make no changes in forms that they cannot explain, and only then if they are useful in maintaining the kata as canon of information. Is the problem with the students understanding? Or with the kata? Each teacher tries to pass his own understanding down. Easier said than done. Each dedicated student will become the teacher. And we hope this evolution will continue without changing. Karate is a koan. Wishing you all thats good.
Laoshr #60
Ching Yi Kung Fu Association

[ShaolinDL]

To answer the question of the day: My perspective is that in application stances should be dynamic, the depth and length depending on the situation. My base is typically higher and narrower, however as two examples: If I need a bit more reach I will step out wider, and if I am attacking low or am countering low either striking or felling I will go lower. When just training footwork I try to flow through variations spontaneously. When I am using stances to train internally and externally I start high and sink lower as the body relaxes more. I am finding more and more that there are no cookie cutter stances, as everyone's body is different, there needs to be a training of awareness so each person can personalize it by make the small adjustments needed to avoid strain in the joints. A little wider, a littler narrow, a little higher, a little lower, feet parallel or toes out a bit or a bit more, etc, it all starts with being aware of oneself.

[haffoc]

I am a shotokan guy but long ago I left a lot of the baggage of Shotokan behind.
1) long stances are impractical in that they inhibit mobility. Mobility, not parrying, is your first defense. You parry only when you can’t get out of the way.
2) Shotokan is known for its wide movements, especially in the parries. These are impractical. Your parries will only work in practical application if they are quick and economical. Think of the way shuto uke is performed, by bringing the parrying hand to the ear before executing the parry. If you did that in an actual fight, you’d get hit before you could parry. The practical parry proceeds from where the hand is at the time you perceive the blow. It is quick and sharp and is brought immediately back to its starting place because to leave it out there, as is done in the kata and so much useless bunkai, leaves you vulnerable to the following strike.
3) Shotokan overemphasizes kime and strength both in parrying and striking. The object, of course, of kime is the development of power. But power is not as important as speed. It doesn’t matter how strongly you strike or parry if the movement is not fast enough to achieve its purpose. Anyway, power comes from speed. Speed comes from relaxing and being fluid. Classical Shotokan is too rigid and tense.

[FredKuneDo]

I think the wide stances of "modern" Shotokan are good for training the muscles of the legs, but are actually not really sooo good for kicking in a fight as Gigo Funakoshi might have thought.
This might be interesting: If you watch " Karate Combat" this new "full contact league" is dominated by Shotokan practicioners (2nd largest group are from Shito Ryu), but they really have to abandon the deep stances which are done in "WKF Sports Karate".
Same thing in Kyokushin and related styles-tourunaments: The wide stances and wide moves may work really good in rulesets of "Pointfighting" to get your "Ippon", but in continous fighting higher or less wider stances are almost mandatory to kick and punch faster in followup techniques.

[mharm]

I took shotokan in the early 80's and visited a shotokan club last year in the states. It was almost unrecognizeable and the instructors were openly disparaging the old methods of training as well as berating the specific karate teacher I went to who had passed away a few years ago. The training was so light and toned down that it was alien to me and the karate students at the dojo looked much weaker, less conditioned and less effective and capable of surviving a fight in the real world. I decided to try a different style of karate than Shotokan. It is better to start fresh than have the conflict of what I thought Shotokan was and what the instructor thought it was interfering with my training.

[optimusmaximus]

Another brilliant video. As a taekwondo (and judo) practitioner myself, I always like it when you show the close relationship between tkd and karate.

[morrieolson]

Having trained initially under well known Japanese Karate Master in the modern Shotokan way I understand the venefit of developing strong legs and using tge hips. Hip movement however is not limited due to wider or deeper stances. Years later I met a hugh kevel and one of the higher level black belts of Tsutomu Ohshima, who translated Karate- do Kyohan, and received permission from Master Funikoshi yo teach in the U.S.A. I also trained with Master Ohshima. I then relearned all the kata and movements in tve original Shotokan.
way. As you said in this video, Okinawan Karate was focussed on self defense. At the highest level one must be able to move without any prior leaning, moving or sbifti g one's body. In deeper, longer, stances this is made incredibly more diffjcult. Any distance gained by lknger stances is dwarfed by the speed and lack of prior movements of the Old Way. This, kind of movement is actually a principle of Zen and found in earlier philosophy of Chinese martial arts. Unfortunately, thus wsy of moving has almost entirely been lost. The new ways of training emphasizing leg power, was also important prior to more modern tsining methods that are now available. After decades of experience, one can learn that greater power xan be achieved through the earlier form of movement couple with strhctural nidy alignment, and channeling tremendous energy through it directly from the ground through the body into the opponent with a fraction of the physical tension and misalignment seen in the modern Shotokan physical form.
There is actually a term for this in Chinese.

[retroghidora]

I've read almost all of Gichin's books and seen some photos/film of him in action. It's my belief that the amount of change in shotokan has been overstated by many in the martial arts community.

Gichin can be seen doing fairly deep amd athletic stances in kata. For the most part not to the degree that can be seen in modern wkf but certainly not narrow or shallow. And there's at least one instance I've found that is actually quite similar to modern standards.

What's more in his books there are several points where he instructs that one should "kick as high as possible" at certain points in forms. He also lists jumping kicks as striking techniques.

Footage seemingly from the 20s and photos from his 3rd book (early/mid 30s) show his students doing the same, deep stances and "fancy" kicks, before he had his son and senior students start taking over in leadership roles.

I hope this info is of some help to folks looking into Karate's history. I recommend everyone read all the books themselves.

[mikeh]

I trained Shotokan for many years and in the formative years overemphasised the length of my stances. This paid dividends in later years. By that I mean when training, and, I stress training in longer stances, when I shortened my stances for kumite I moved so much faster. The way I trained had built up my lower body strength. When training in kumite I found I could attack at a very fast speed with a basic technique such as oi tsuki or sanbon tsuki. As a side note, I visited Sueyoshi Park, near Naha, Okinawa, where there are two memorial pillars amongst pine trees dedicated each to Gichin Funakoshi & Gigo. It was a very peaceful moment, my wife & I duly paid our respects.