340. Hadrian and Antinous

A mysterious death on the Nile, an unconventional love affair, a Roman-Greek hero turned God - the story of Hadrian and Antinous is full of intrigue. Join Tom and Dominic as they delve into the world of Roman romance, where gender binaries and modern moral arguments do not feature, and look into the possible theories of how Antinous' body ended up in the Nile...

*The Rest Is History Live Tour 2023*:Tom and Dominic are back on tour this autumn! See them live in London, New Zealand, and Australia!

Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook

[Mute_Nostril_Agony]

I think Antinous would have denied that he was gay. But he was in de Nile....

[sebastianb.]

The modern equivalencies you're searching for are "twink" for Antinous and "bear" for Hadrian.

[kindnesslove]

The more Roman the better.
I wish you did more in depth stories like this, but from the Republic.
I want a series on Marius !

[tychojohnson]

One point not mentioned - Antinous possibly wasnt interested in sex with old men. At no point is it clear he displays any agency in this regard. If he was a girl no modern narrator would call this a love story, particularly as it ends in his mysterious death.

[silvercorvidsmarketing]

My take is that Hadrian got drunk during the celebrations, got into a religious delirium (that everybody went along with) and killed Antonious. That... Would explain his reaction afterwards, when he sobered up.

[michaelbedford]

I don't know if it was intended, but the conversation contained more 'double-entendres' than a 'Carry On' film.
If one of them could do a passable Sid James, and the other a Kenneth Williams, the podcast would have been perfect!

[Terinije]

An important thing to note is that classical writings on the subject were written by their equivalent of rich people partying on Epstein Island. So while they liked their setups for having young boys, I have to imagine that there were many, many, MANY, victims that did not like this setup, even if they in turn vicitimized boys on their own when they reached adulthood.

[semilio]

It seems that buggery in the ancient world was pervasive.

[hanab]

Dominic is a really gifted narrator. I was absolutely transported to Roman Egypt within the first couple minutes.

[ropeburnsrussell]

You chaps should definitely record an episode after downing a bottle of port.
You would be totally out of control and i for one would dig it.

[johannesnicolaas]

Winston and Antinous together in one illustration... quite shocking.

[jnnyism]

Is it possible that he was attempting to reenact the Osiris myth as a treat for Hadrian and simply died in misadventure?

[otterlyso]

"Tom, you love eunuchs. I mean, there's no doubt about that."

[kaloarepo]

Julius Caesar, as a young man, is supposed to have given himself to the king of Bithynia in return for Bithynia's help in the a war against Pontus.

[kamarco]

Yourcenar seemed to make Hadrian seem to think it was suicide. But what do they know?

[bookaufman]

You say that slaves were considered feminized but the gladiators were slaves and I don't think they were considered feminized. Actually women wanted their sweat as an aphrodisiac. I don't think that the Romans viewed all slaves the same.

[iloveblackants]

Its always a jealous wife. I would bet all my money any murder of a lover comes from the jealous spouse. I learned that from all the murder porn on ID Channel lol

[rossalbert]

Back then, I think things were different. I think it may be because back then, procreation was treated as an obligation.

[Mute_Nostril_Agony]

Great narration, Dominic. You say that the predatory aspects of elderly Romans on junior, young boys was "a different world". Sounds like grooming behavior at ITV's Good Morning programme....

[brandonlabbe]

42:30 I thought he was going in a different direction there. It seems possible to me that Antinous could've been drunk from festivities and fallen over. Perhaps that's too simple, though. It's much less poetic, but life is seldom poetic.