Five Roman Catholic Myths About Lutheranism

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This part of our Five Reasons series discusses five myths about Lutheranism that are often repeated by Roman Catholics.
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Timestamps:

00:00 - Context of Previous Videos to this one
00:25 - Myth 1, Lutherans Deny Real Presence in Eucharist
02:08 - "In, With, and Under" Explained
03:42 - Myth 2, Lutherans Have No Sacrifice in Mass
04:59 - Directionality Disagreement
05:48 - Sacrifice of Praise
06:17 - Myth 3, Lutherans Reject Tradition
07:35 - Authoritative, But Correctible
08:27 - Comparison with Earthly Authorities
10:04 - Scriptures, the only Infallible Authority
11:55 - Myth 4, Lutheranism is a New Church
13:32 - Lutherans Often Agree with the Church Fathers
14:48 - A Continuation, not a New Church
17:17 - Myth 5, Lutherans are Nominalists
19:02 - Luther favored Plato over Aristotle
20:30 - Lutherans are not all mini-Luthers
22:16 - Closing

ottovonbaden
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I wish we had a Dr Cooper where I live. My old ELCA was nothing like this. This is content that I would gladly pay $ to inject into my veins. Apostolic fathers, Luther, the Bible, moral law, tradition, philosophy, history, art, culture, with Jesus Christ at the Center holding the worldview together. Awesome content.

SibleySteve
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I don't understand why they say Luther started his own church and he should have tried to reform from within. Luther was ex-communicated. He DID try to reform from within. But he didn't just give up after being ex-communicated. We may have never heard of him had they not ex-communicated him.

juanitadudley
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I am an Australian Lutheran. Your summary of the Lutheran understanding is spot on! Thank you, Dr Cooper!

paulthiele
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Thank you for sharing, Dr. Cooper. I enjoyed the intellectual and explanatory approach to the subject. As a Catholic, I find it helpful to understand how Lutherans commonly think of some of our critiques, and how our use of broad language as theological points won’t ever help move conversations forward. I’m looking forward to more of your Catholic/Lutheran content in the future. God bless!

mikeolds
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I'm Roman Catholic and I've been spreading the myth that y'all worship Lex Luthor for the past decade so you should probably add that to the list too.

bigape
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@dr jorden Cooper. I really enjoyed this. And I really need this. As you maybe be a aware I was a baptised roman Catholic. And I started looking in the protestantism. And sometimes I don't struggle. With the works of Martin Luther. And the work of John Calvin. Bless to you brother. Because I really appreciate this. God bless you on this holy week ✝️🛐

collettewhitney
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I think the concern that the East/Rome have with the Protestant approach to tradition is that when they hear us saying: "tradition is a fallible authority, " what they hear is an ecclesiology vacated of the guiding presence of the Holy Spirit.

We need to be cautious that we don't give this impression. What they wish to affirm is that the church is a spiritual body and that everything it does: gather for council, produce theological reflection, develop liturgical expression, etc etc is not simply human, but is the divine working in and through her. We, as Protestants, need to be able to guard against that concern BUT also in a way that retains the danger of the church needing reform.

poordoubloon
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First - I thought the part on Nominalism was very well done and for such a concise summary really nailed it (I say that as a Catholic, ex- confessional Lutheran). Great job disposing of that false over-simplification.

On the Sacrifice of the Mass what you are presenting is a theological way to understand the Lutheran Liturgy. Agree that the Apology uses some sacrificial language. But what about the language of the Lutheran mass itself. In all fairness, what took place when Luther took his scalpel to the Eucharistic and other prayers of the mass, all references to "sacrifice" were rather ruthlessly excised. Including any use of the word sacrifice in terms of any thing we "offer" even as part of a the phrase "sacrifice of praise". And this allergy to the idea continues to this day in confessional Lutheranism (there was a debate in putting together either the LSB or its immediate predecessor as to whether to reference "sacrifice of praise"- conclusion was no). In any event, I think Catholics are referring exactly to the aversion of any concept of 're-presentation" of the Sacrifice of Calvary - although you rightly point out that the "benefits" of the Sacrifice of Calvary are understood as made available (and, in that sense, re-presented, so what's the beef - distinction without a significant difference to me) as a Lutheran receives communion. As for the downward directionality as "gift " in Lutheran liturgical theology that you often refer to, what is missing from your characterization of Catholicism is that the Eucharistic action is viewed as bidirectional and what is first given to us by God as gift is then offered back to God as sacrifice (and many of the offertory prayers explicitly say this very thing). An rough analogy would be to prevenient grace. And that concept existed at the time of Trent, but in fairness to you, I acknowledge that clearly the downward gift has been greatly re-emphasized since V2. Trent of course was focused on condemning the opposition to the idea of an "sacrificial offering" which Catholics continue to affirm and which the reformed Liturgy references (not to the degree or emphasis that would satisfy radical traditionalists but that is another story).

toddvoss
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Dr. Cooper, I so often see people converting to Roman Catholicism who, if they had been aware of Protestantism outside of the reformed or evangelical tradition, would never have become Catholic. A lot of the misconceptions you point out here reflect this conflation of all Protestantism with the reformed.

In light of this, do you think the term “Protestant” is worth trying to hang on to? I find when I have conversations with Roman Catholic brothers it requires so much disambiguation that it becomes an unhelpful term. I have seen others say that it is unhelpful to define ourselves by an oppositional term.

Thanks for all your videos!

yuy
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I think Lutheran eucharistic sacrifice is more in line with Eastern Orthodoxy (and even more so with the Anglican Prayerbook). People just need to realize that with "eucharistic sacrifice, " as with "real presence, " Rome's views are a particular expression of a general species (which we all share).

Please do continue on this topic, it needs a lot more attention than it gets.

poordoubloon
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I am a Charismatic. I go to the Lutheran church because I believe it has the most biblical doctrine of the sacraments.

angelbonilla
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A few other ones I hear from Catholics as well as secualrists, are Luther rejected private confession, Luther did not believe in free will, Luther wanted everyone to read the Bible and decide for themselves what it meant, and Lutheranism rejected the scholastic method.

Ben_G_Biegler
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This was very helpful. I really enjoy the comparisons you do between Lutheran theology and other theological approaches. Canonically I’m RC, but inwardly I’m very much drawn to the confessional Lutheran emphasis on sola fide and the primacy of scripture. I associate the “joy of the gospel” with justification by faith as understood within Lutheranism.

robertb
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I’ve also heard Roman Catholics refer to Lutherans as “Catholic Lite.”

simonsemaan
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When asked about transubstantiation, Roman priests admit that if you sneak some off to a chemical lab, it'll test as bread and wine. For my part, therefore, I can't distinguish what Catholics mean by transubstantiation from the Lutheran formula that the Body and Blood are present under the form of bread and wine.

michaelwoods
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Can you make a video about the history of when and how the European Lutheran churches went so wrong? Especially the Nordic episcopal ones, most of which seem to be barely even christian today.

SanQae
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Thanks for this video! I'm quite sympathetic to the Catholic church (as a medieval historian who enjoys the wealth of semantic ritual explorations, such as Miri Rubin's Corpus Christi or Eamon Duffy's work) but you make some excellent points, especially the presence of the body of Christ and sola scriptura as not rejecting tradition per se! Great stuff

brianmegyessi
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Thank you. God's peace be with you

lc-mschristian
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Ex Lutheran who became Catholic here... Most Catholics I know simply don't know what Lutherans believe, but for some reason they all think it ain't as bad as baptists or Reformed... ;-)

stephanelarochelle