Gaijin Accidentally Fixed Top Tier... | War Thunder

A discussion on ways to make top tier a more enjoyable experience.
I've been thinking of making a video on this topic for a while, but a lucky coincidence in timing with a bug in the update made it very easy for me to finish this video.

0:00 - Problems with Top Tier
0:24 - Downsides of Smaller Lobbies
4:10 - Finding the Source
6:40 - Breaking Point
8:34 - The Core Issue
11:50 - Final Thoughts

Music:
Undertale Yellow OST: 092 - Guns Blazing
Undertale Yellow OST: 127 - Enemy Retreating
Undertale Yellow OST: 133 - Retribution
Undertale Yellow OST: 010 - Justice

[CatWerfer]

Addressing (and agreeing with) some common counterpoints/suggestions:
*Counterpoint 1: Small match sizes favor skill*
This is true to an extent. In the 3v1 example, if you're significantly more skilled than the average player (which isn't too difficult), you can just "win", especially if the enemies are stock and are fighting against ARHs with SARHs.
But assuming that they don't add smaller matches as a separate gamemode, this ignores that there are people who aren't trying to air-to-air. Attackers and non-meta vehicles would do much poorer, and unless they don't have somewhere else to go, you're basically making them obsolete like bombers are in prop tier, except even prop bombers are still somewhat survivable and defendable. If you've played Germany 6.0 during the Ju288 hayday you know that 6v6 with 4 bombers, 1 attacker, 1 fighter vs a team of 6 fighters is not very fair. With the vehicle grind being incredibly long at high tier, it would be borderline evil to make a plane you've ground out practically dead as soon as you spawn it. Too heavily favoring skill comes at the cost of playability for stock/non-meta/uptiered vehicles.

*Counterpoint 2: Large matches lead to snowball effect and shorter matches*
This is true. This is the one counterpoint that I think makes the most sense. Current top tier matches usually end in a steamroll from one side, meaning a skilled player on the attacker's side gets to do less than they wanted to and a skilled player on the defender's side dies in a 1v6. I do think that the reduced proxy spotting would counteract this somewhat since it will make it harder for people to 3rd party you from long range, which is generally how most uncontestable kills are made at top tier, but I do still think this counterpoint is a fair critisism. Based on just this point alone, I am not against smaller lobbies, 12v12 ior 10v10 are probably okay.

*Counterpoint 3: Lower spotting efficacy reduces situational awareness and increases randomness in encounters, making defending harder*
The current system favors planes with long range ARH missiles that loiter behind the furball at altitude, unspotted and waiting to use their teammates as spotting bait to spot enemies to fire missiles on enemies that have no way of defending. The new system may reduce situational awareness on an absolute scale, but it favors those who do use their look around key to scan for enemies and actively use their radar to search for targets, making it take more skill to keep your surroundings clear. It's the relative strength that matters. To the defender who can't see the enemy firing in the first place, not much changes, but the attacker needs to put in a lot more work to find people with their radar and determine good launches once the closer range engagements start if they want to sit back and lob amraams. Like be honest, most of the radar's use for the sake of spotting comes at the very start of the game during the initial volley, which is relatively easy to dodge since the enemy usually comes from the same direction. Afterwards you'll probably be in ACM HMD mode firing on enemies that either you or your friendlies have spotted for you until the lategame where you're tracking down the last few enemies. The new system means you have to find people for yourself instead of using your teammates as spotting cannon fodder and calling it "teamwork". It means you have a harder time assessing whether a situation is favorable or not and makes people more careful when choosing engagements, meaning it'll promote more reserved gameplay, reduce dogpiling, and reduce the number of people from and reduce the efficacy of going gungho banzai straight into the middle because they see 5 people they can spamraam.

*Counterpoint 4: Stock vehicles/bombers do better in smaller matches because there are more bases to bomb*
I think this is a good point but also would just be fixed by having more bombing points. It's absurd that the number of bombing points doesn't scale with the number of planes with bombs on the team and that the game makes you compete for bombing points.


*Suggestion 1: Remove all enemy markers*
Heavily favors planes with large amounts of countermeasures and a good RWR. Some planes don't have enemy ID for their RWR so you can't tell if what's being launched at you is an ARH or a SARH. Planes like the MiG29 with a poor RWR and limited chaff/flare rely on being able to visually ID the attacker, deduce what missile is being fired at it, and react accordingly. You wouldn't know if you need to preflare against a missile with IRCCM or if you can just use one or two pops to defeat an AIM-9L.
Planes like the Gripen have ungodly amounts of chaff/flares and can get away with flare dumping, and everything would need rebalancing, which we know Gaijin sucks at.

*Suggestion 2: Spread out objectives/spawn points*
Good idea, though there needs to be an incentive for players doing explicitly air-to-air pvp to spread out. Currently the game favors sticking together (everyone going left together) because there's security in numbers. If you were to charge alone headfirst to the right side of your airfield, you would get swatted immediately in a 1v10, and even if given the option to spawn on separate runways, I think everyone doing air-to-air pvp would still end up converging together at the middle like how games go on EC-style maps, since as soon as someone get spotted, they're spotted for everyone, meaning everyone ends up dogpiling in the middle anyways. Not quite sure on the exact implementation, but

*Suggestion 3: Remove spotting via allies BUT one of the following: keep it for squadmates/random squadmates/have allies show how many enemies they've spotted/spot via radar/keep spotting via allies within X range/datalink*
I like these kinds of suggestions, some of them are very creative. I don't know how well they'd work ingame but I think they'd be interesting to try in order to balance out the loss of situational awareness from losing spotting via allies and promote teamwork if we ever do get the chance to try.

*Suggestion 4: More gamemodes for very small matches (6v6, 3v3), Air-to-ground PvE, Air RB EC, better BR balancing, BR decompression*
The obvious solution that Gaijin refuses to implement, whether it's server costs or queue times, or "muh statistics".
More options never hurt, especially if they test them as events that they can use as a testbed for tweaking.

*Suggestion 5: Electronic Warfare, AWACS, Ground Radar*
I don't know much about how these systems work IRL but would be cool to see integrated. I don't have much faith in gaijin to implement them well though, and if things like ECM are equipped on certain specific planes, it might not be effective at balancing things for all planes and planes that don't have it equipped.

*Suggestion 6: Weapons Loadout-based-BR matchmaking*
This would (presumably) make stock grinds easier since if they have fewer/less effective weapons they would ideally be at a lower BR, but do we really want to give Gaijin more BRs to try and balance when they have such a hard time with the BRs that we already have?

*Suggestion 7: Increase spotting efficacy based on BR/weapons range/radar*
I'm not opposed to this, it would at least level the playing field if everyone could just spot everyone, but I think there should still be an element of stealth or sneaking up on people that would be lost if this were the case, which I think still deserves some place in the game.

*Summary: Unless they add different gamemodes, Air RB MUST be able to accommodate for players in stock/non-meta/uptiered vehicles to the point where they're at least able to earn a bit of RP per game because they have nowhere else to grind this (Air Assault is a joke)*
It is insulting to make someone spend 400K RP and 1.3M SL to grind a vehicle (not counting the vehicles before it), only for it to be dead on arrival because the gamemode doesn't allow for non-meta vehicles/playstyles.
I'm not entirely opposed to smaller matches, I think 12v12 or maybe 10v10 is fine, though personally I've opted out of it, but I do think that there still needs to be fixes to spotting since
So many of these problems would be relatively fixed if they gave planes full secondary weapon loadouts/chaff stock, had separate gamemodes for different aircraft roles and match sizes, rewarded teamwork, actually balanced vehicles, and bothered to listen to the community.
I hope the takeaway from this video is that even if you disagree with my suggestions, there are upsides and downsides to any decision to change made, but that Gaijin are lazy cowards for not trying at all.

For those of you who care about my "credentials":
I'm free to play, no premium time, no premium planes/talismans above 6.3, all of which I earned via warbonds/selling event vehicles.
I have top tier air in every nation except Italy and Israel and have spaded the F-16C, F-15C, F-14B, AV-8B+, MiG-29G, MiG-29SMT, Su-27SM, J-10A, Mirage 2000-5F, and JAS39C, all of which I stockgrinded before they added stock ARHs.
I haven't gotten the F-15E or Su-34 yet because I'm not Gaijin affiliated (I don't plan to be) and I have a life (god forbid).
My highest kill games were 9kills, and generally I get 2 kills per game minimum as long as I'm not fully stock.

I say this stuff not because I think it's important but because there are plenty of people who are calling this video "cope" and "skill issue" when I don't really struggle all that much at top tier, so don't think it's a very compelling argument.
I just want the game to be enjoyable across the board and not just a handful of people playing whatever is meta this season.

[horusmorus]

Its crazy that we are still playing the same gamemode from 10 years ago, kill everyone or the ticket bleed race. They’re so much creative ideas and gamemodes you could do in this sandbox but we’re still doing whoever makes the biggest furball first wins

[ruansteenkamp]

What could also be done is tie the spotting system to your plane's radar, if your radar sees them, then they pop up, if it doesn't then you only see them when they pop up within the 6km range of the mark 1 eyeball

[DoctorBruKhar]

My favorite way to dogfight is actually in ground RB of all modes, you actually have to acquire and maintain a visual on the enemy and it's extremely viable to use real life tactics to get the drop on people unlike air RB which just uses arcade spotting for some reason. It's like playing sim but actually fun and if it respected your time.

[cybershinobi]

We just need more varied gamemodes that actually give the same rp and sl as realistic so its not a waste of time

[yellow]

I quit playing War Thunder when guided air-to-air missiles were first released. Now I've come back to the game, I'm grinding to reach top tier but I'm scared for my life... Top tier gameplay looks batshit insane

[jackgamer]

There's a reason some people call it "SPAAMRAAM"

[CatWerfer]

Pretty crazy coincidence that I was considering making a video on this and then gaijin accidentally releases the update with that exact bug

[butterguy]

As an F4C sufferer, the first segment talking about overtiered and bad planes is the proper strategy for it.

[Pilotwo]

Its sad seeing an f104 running from my magic 2 then turning into a ball of burning metal

[AttacMage]

WoWs has already solved this issue for the most part. Each ship has a visual detection/communication range where any teammates or enemies (as long as they're spotted) within that range will be highlighted. Torpedoes, planes, submarine pings, etc. that are spotted by other teammates within that range will be revealed to you as well. When a hurricane or storm happens, your visual range goes down and also cuts off your visual communication with teammates. This, alongside with the slower traversal of ships, allows for large games to still consist of mostly 1v3s to 3v3s, because the guy on A side can't see, let alone interact with, C side for another 3-5 minutes until he wins his side or flees west to B and subsequently comes within communication and gun range.

It's not noticeable that often, but it pairs well with the other systems in play to prevent massive hordes while still allowing for large games. I can go with three friends and rush down the middle as long as we can beat the three guys in front and survive a crossfire from everyone else to our sides. We just have to prep for it accordingly. Warthunder is far harder to hit someone in, so you don't need as absolute of a spotting/shooting/concealment system as well.

While it's not necessarily foolproof, I'd be interested in seeing a larger map with split up teams for realistic. Incentivize taking the 2v2-4v4 where you spawn and then they head for a flank or merge with the remnants of both teams. Some people might dislike it, but that's the style that I do like. Maybe have a moving objective, just mix things up and add new objective types. Tickets are far too aggressive as-is, but you still need an objective other than "kill the entire team" to play for. Maybe add a single respawn for a player for a significant accomplishment instead of a repair and rearm. Just throwing things out. I highly recommend looking at how Warships does their spotting and point system.

[HMSNeptun]

I disagree about the larger battle size part.

1. Larger battles are just a band aid solution, you still suffer when you are gimped or your plane is stock. Utilising terrain is statistically easier if you are going up against less opponents. Force gaijin to add flare/chaff as standard and reduce module RP across the board is just a much better solution.


2. Although smaller battle sizes means that individual impact on the battle is higher, the impact one needs to make to change the outcome of the entire battle is also less: 8 kills in an 8v8 game guarantees you the game, but 8 kills in a 16v16 game where you die half way through can still lose you the game if half of your team are base bombers.

In your hypothetical 3v3 scenario, even if you are stuck in a 1v3, you still have the impact to downright kill all 3 opponents by virtue of the number of missiles top tier aircraft is carrying. A 1v3 is winnable, a 1v16 not very much.

2.1 larger team sizes do NOT help the balance of the match; early differences can easily snowball into a one-sided game either way(it happens on most top tier matches, even back in the day)


3. Smaller team sizes also encourages longer gameplay, where you can use more missiles on the same opponent and have much more strategy (e.g.going all in in a salvo of ER/ET/77, or play the long game, focus on notching and conserving missiles, and land a decisive blow later), whereas it is impossible currently with 16v16, where you are forced to shoot at multiple enemies each encounter.

[VIT-eywo]

What top tier really needs is multiple airfields to spawn on, like in sim.

Getting tired of seeing a giant furball on the radar in every match.
It just punishes being aggressive

[Frogg-YT]

im sorry if this goes addressed later in the video but.
0:50 all these downsides are things that gaijin could also make a change to. stock vehicles are bad? make them a bit better. full uptier? change the br compresssion and uptier system. basebombers/groundpounders? make a new gamemode specificly for this task that is like arb but has a larger focus on pve (arb is the same thing rn just vice versa). overtiered vehicles? what i just said, fix br compression. its so easy to just decompress cuz all you have to do is spend some hours deciding what vehicles deserve what br properly and increase the max atleast 5 (a max of 19).

[whatev]

I think one solution to the issues of top tier air could be a change in enemy markers. The biggest issue is the clump of planes that develop where if you are in it you could have 3 or 4 missiles flying at you at once. A solution to this could be to change the markers of the enemies. For example currently in war thunder once one player on your team gets within the range of an enemy that enemy now has a marker for everyone on the team. I think we should change it so that the marker only appears for people that are maybe 5 kilometers out maximum from the friendly who originally spotted the enemy. This would fix the issue of a massive furball developing because of everyone beelining for the cited enemy. Hope this all makes sense.

[Trojanponey]

It's nice to see someone give a counter argument to the lobby size debate, it's been rather one-sided for the last year or so. You're right, it's generally understood in many game development circles that larger MP lobbies reduce the impact on the game that any individual player has thus effective averaging out each team to the average skill level on the team and helps keep things balanced. Yes the lobby chaos is a problem but reducing lobby sizes might not be the silver bullet many folks hope it is.

[Kyleplier]

Having AWACS would make the game much closer to DCS with how spotting works. I mean, planes with ARH do have DL (Down Link). That’s what Down Link is for, AWACS or similar systems.

[toastwitheggs]

Problem with spotting is, if we're talking about realism, it makes sense to have one player spotting you share your location with the whole team, because you wouldn't hold radio silence over spotting an enemy, and while gaijin does stupid unrealistic things to "balance" the game, I think this is something they'd want to keep in.

[verySharkey]

Ground based Radar or Awacs objectives sounds like so much fun. Turn the game into a race of "who can delete the enemy surveillance equipment first and survive the enemy trying to do the same.

[meesdoetregie]

Sometimes I play the Mig-29 in the USSR tree, but you can't go high. Because your enemy can go cold and the missile is still coming and you have to keep your lock