The Guru's Shadow - Ken Wilber

Commentary on charismatic leaders who have a lot of shadow material.

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[patriciaedwards]

Adi Da didn’t need to get drunk in order to open up but a number of his devotees did, and that is why alcohol was occasionally used in the early gatherings, to temporarily sensitise his devotees in order that they would be receptive to his spiritual transmission . He was neither a drunk not a womaniser. He had a profound spiritual connection with each of his partners. Surface judgements fall woefully short of the truth.

[JasnomiS]

This is the clearest and to the point presentation of nirvana, samsara and the nondual state I have ever seen/heard. Personal shadow-work is probably the most unrespected and missing part in most spiritual "stuff". It is so obvious why this ruins otherwise so greatly developed teachers. Great interview

[louisvalentino]

Honesty is what I hear in this interview. Thank you:

[BitcoinDad]

Ken Wilber is an amazingly wise and enlightened person. And, guys, really, thanks a lot for the questions you were asking him! Brilliant questions and brilliant answers. I'm subscribing :)

[julieanderson]

The understanding of the relationship between the devotee and the Spiritual Master is of great importance since it is the basis of all spiritual traditions, prophecies and teachings.

If people didn't fully study my Teaching on this matter they might tend to associate and even identify it with some of the traditional exercises. . . in such traditions as the Advaitic tradition. And there's a tendency in the Advaitic tradition to develop this kind of "talking school" approach to Realization. And therefore it tends also to legitimize the point of view of certain kinds of advocates who can be read, and even heard in public. Who "preach" to people about consciousness and call them to identify. . . merely to identify with it. They try to talk people into identifying with consciousness, or merely to relax their minds and so forth, and settle into a conscious state, that doesn't have any particular reference to the body-mind, although its still associated with it practically.

There are many such advocates. I've spoken about Krishnamurti from time to time, he's just one. There are many such people these days. They all have in common, a call to people to do something like the. . . exercise of logic recommended in the Advaitic "talking school". They call upon them to identify with Consciousness, presently, to believe and affirm that the essence of the being, the consciousness behind thoughts and actions is presently and always already identical to Brahman or the Transcendental Condition. Therefore, merely by involving yourself in this kind of analytical exercise, you can presume that you are enlightened, or that you have achieved Jnana. That's not at all true. The same kinds of advocates are also busy telling people that there is no real purpose for a Spiritual Master, except to bind yourself to another ego and so on.

The reason they can so easily dismiss the Spiritual Master is because they have already dismissed the whole process of spiritual practice. And all that's necessary for them is this kind of analytical effort of identifying with Consciousness. It is true that our own consciousness, that which is at the root of attention, is ultimately, even inherently, identical to the Transcendental Being. But this must be Realized to be so. And it cannot be Realized to be so until energy and attention are free for that most profound and Radical Intuition. It's not merely factually so. It's not factually so that Atman and Paramatman or Brahman are identical. It's not factually so that Nirvana and samsara are the same. By definition these are opposites. Nirvana and samsara are actual or absolute opposites of one another. That's how the two terms arose in traditions. They indicate two entirely different states of existence, one Transcendental and the other conditional.

Well, in the Buddhist tradition, this formula developed eventually, that the

states that are Nirvana and samsara are the same. Well, this is a confession of Adepts. This is a confession of Realization. In the case of Realization it is True. In some profound, paradoxical sense. But it is not factually true. It's true only in the case of Realization.

Likewise, in the Advaitic tradition, in many places in the Hindu tradition, we hear the proclamation that Atman and Paramatman, or Atman and Brahman, are identical. This is not factually true in the original development of these terms. They were meant to indicate complete opposites. They are Realized to be identical by Adepts. The equation is Realized to be true, or the Truth in the case of an Adept. But not otherwise. The equation is not factually true, it's only true by virtue of Realization. So you cannot, merely by inverting upon the self-essence, identify with the Transcendental Being. To invert upon the self-

-


essence is merely to continue the act of Narcissus (the ego act of identification with a separate self). It is to meditate upon the self-essence, the essence of the ego, the root consciousness of the ego. Until the ego is transcended, that's all that's at the base of the "I" thought.

We may have some sense, some intuition of that which goes beyond the limit of self-contracted consciousness, but we cannot Realize our identity with it, apart from the fullest development of spiritual practice. In fact, therefore, it is a heresy to claim that Atman and Paramatman are the same, or that Atman and Brahman are the same, until you have Realized it. It is a heresy to declare that Nirvana and samsara are the same. Its a ridiculous claim except in the case of Realization.

Spiritual Understanding in our discussion is not to be equated with a kind of "talking school" conceit, or the presumption of the ego, that wants to be realized immediately without having to go through the hard school of purification, liberation, and awakening. Spiritual Understanding involves the transcendence of the ego, or conditional attention and this develops by stages — it has a number of forms. . .

The reason for this is that the ego is not merely some superficial notion. The ego applies to every single aspect, every part, function, state, relation, and condition of the self. There is no part of the manifest self that is not characterized by the ego or self-contraction. It's not merely a superficial part of you, underneath which there is this eternally free essence which you should identify with. Even that essence underneath it all, that fundamental sense of self-consciousness is a fraction of this total character that is the ego or seperate self. This total character must be understood and transcended. In every feature, function, part, relation, state — waking, dreaming, and sleeping — this consciousness that is identified with in the "talking school" is nothing but the bare consciousness of the waking state, or attention apart from objects. It is not, in any sense, a practice of enlightenment or enlightened understanding; it is simply egoic consciousness. That egoic consciousness in all of its forms must be transcended for any spiritual understanding to awaken.


Avatar Adi Da Samraj
What Is The Conscious Process?

[Kaliashdevi]

Regarding some of the comments; 'Let he without sin cast the first stone.' I enjoyed listing to this. Thank you, Ken.

[douglaspaulsmith]

Love this interview, and I really relate to Ken's point of view on nirvana, and especially on the subject of guru behavior.

[Octavus]

_"Sudden awakening, gradual cultivation."_
I believe this has been around in the Zen tradition for a while, and it points to waking up, cleaning up, and growing up.

[cindyweir]

I’m no follower. I never have been but I take what is offered if it resonates as truth in my own psyche. Ken has some pretty good insights as does other teachers of this era. Discernment is best.

[anacristinakoda]

In my experience, meditation have been lead me to whole process of cleaning, transforming and live in no duality step by step. When we reached it we can really understand the four noble trues of budhism, not just know about.

[moesypittounikos]

I wonder whether Alan Watts had a shadow? I love his YouTube talks but I read he had a serious alcohol problem. Watts was asked why he drank so much and he said it was because he hated himself and wanted out. But you will never guess this by listening to his melodic, happy English voice.

[littlesunandtherays]

He brings up the problem in spiritual circles I have been discussing for years. The mystical view must merge with the scientific view so you can apply wisdom while operating in the world accordingly.

[azlanameer]

This old sage is quite right... Here in east in Hindu and Muslim mystic traditions a desiple is traind in unconditonal obedience rather servitude to the Guru Or Murshid. There is saying " A DESCIPLE TO A GURU IS LIKE A UNCONSINCE AND NAKED PATIENT ON A TABLE IN OPERATION THEATER BEFORE HIS DOCTOR"

[numinous_neccesities]

The chasm between form and emptiness is the cause of deep suffering. What the DSM5 calls "depersonalization" is absolutely an experience of this chasm. The fact that emptiness is not other than form, is the very reason, you can feel separated from it. If they were in truth, not connected, then there would be no way to feel separated. Our mental health authorities often have little insight into spiritual realities, and often are not even aware of their own lack of awareness of their own psyche. This is causing much ignorance to spread on what mental illness may turn out to actually be. We are filtering "sicknesses" of the Soul/Psyche through eyes of materialism. "That which is emptiness is not other than form, and that which is form is not other than emptiness". This is a statement that will stand the test of time. The apostle Paul wrote "we walk inside his being" when speaking of God. The creation is not separate from its creator at the absolute level, but that doesn't change the experience of samsara, the experience of the relative, from not feeling like actual hell at times. Will we find the truth within ourselves, and compassion on others ignorance while this world either transforms, or falls before our eyes? These are not worthless endeavors. Absolute Love still remains after catastrophe, or the apocalypse, wether it be our own personal shattering of identity, or assisting in the healing of other vessels outside ourselves. But this is Gods will that works through us, it is not that the we as separate identities will ourselves to love and truth. Just felt like writing that up. Peace and blessings to all walking the way, even on the days it feels too much to bear, we know we shall overcome.

[LilachLavy-Emanuel]

Thank you for mentioning Father Thomas Keating ❤

[fightington]

If anyone hasn't read ken wilber, just do it, nothing will bring more clarity to every aspect of your life and work than his models

And everything that is broke in the world is just missing an integral framework

[JuanHugeJanus]

(5:20) You can't find anything about Ram Dass had a brother...

[sattwa]

How does Ken reconcile his years of mutual adoration and support for fallen emotionally crippled Andrew Cohen? They publicly adored each other, sharing the stage and limelight for years as Andrew's megalomania ran amok for decades. They obviously benefited business wise from their association.

[MariaElena]

Ken needs to take out his own garbage on a daily basis.

[Orthodoxi]

From what I can tell there is no person who has woken up or grown up to a stage that isn’t still primarily driven by the shadow. But, say in the case of Ken Wilber and his teachings, there are a few with a more fully developed awareness of the shadow.

The need to have “my” answer versus “the” answer to our current psychological and spiritual problems, seems to be the prevalent obstacle.

To develop beyond this stage takes individuation. And that means you as an individual have addressed and solved the problem of the shadow to the degree it is not the driver of your reality.