Attack of the Clone Fountain Pens! LIVE!

We need to talk about the fakes and the clones and the downright fountain pen copies that are currently coming out of China, but this has been an issue forever.

We discuss everything, honestly, bravely!

So Join Me, Won’t You? As I attack the Clone Fountain Pens!

[Michelt]

Great video! Despite ecam! How many of us are now searching for that magnificent, but maybe elusive, Waterman Edson pen!

[buffer]

Loved starting the video with the Highlander reference! Thanks for throwing in those little references. It makes me feel just that little bit cooler because I actually catch most of them…I think. 😂 Your videos are always such a pleasure to watch. Thanks for sharing!

[CaptChang]

People don't buy $6 clones as substitutes for grail pens. They buy $6 pens because they don't care about a grail pen. To them, they're all the same, and why spend more?

[richardingraham]

I have a very limited income . These inspired pens are a big part of my pen collection. . I just now and getting what I consider upper end pens . My upper end pens are $500.00 --- $800.00

[Michelt]

I did buy an x159 in part to check if that Montblanc would, in terms of size alone, feel comfortable to write with. This is something that the x159 allows you to test, as everything else nib and weight and filling system are completely different. And I should say that I concluded that the original Montblanc would be just too big for my hands and uncomfortable to write with. So maybe a 146 would be better for me.

[doris]

Hello Mr. Jones! I personally will not buy a counterfeit. If I can’t afford something then I’ll wait until I can, rather than give my money to someone who just copied someone else’s design. And you’re right about where the money goes. For all we know it could be to terrorists or traffickers

[haroldmarenger]

Thanks for another interesting discussion. The Aurora 88 and Montblanc 146 & 145 are very similar. Some say Aurora copied Montblanc, and others say Montblanc copied Aurora. To me there are enough differences that each are unique in their own way. I have a few X159s, one or two that I use with ink that might ruin my fine pens (Pelikan, Aurora, Lamy). If the ink ruins the X159, I’m not overly concerned. And the other X159s, along with other cheap pens, I used for practicing nib tuning before tuning one of my more special pens.

[ZackN]

I get frustrated with some of the conflations that tend to happen in these conversations. I don't think anyone can or should excuse outright counterfeits. But that's clearly something different than the likes of Majohn, Jinhao, Wing Sung, etc. are doing. They put their own logos on them, give them their own model names/numbers, etc.

Is it really "stealing a design" to create a cigar-shaped pen of approximately the same circumference and length as another pen that's been around for decades? I don't think so. It feels especially silly in instances like the Jinhao 80 or x159 where people describe those pens as knockoffs or copies (of the Lamy 2000 and Montblanc 149 respectively) when their designs are quite distinct--with a very different type of nib in the case of the Lamy 2000 vs. the Jinhao 80 and/or with a cartridge/converter filling system versus a piston filling system. To me, it just doesn't seem all that much like "stealing" when you design a pen that looks like a pen, particularly when the most essential functional aspects of those designs are different. I'm not saying that what they're doing is some noble pursuit or anything like that. But what they're doing basically just feels like commodifying things that are already commodified and it's a totally normal thing for companies to do.

[sunnycharacter]

Nice knurling on that Viper! I’d love the blue one! JG3 Reviews has a blue one and it looks amazing!

[lsr]

Love my Jinhao dragon! It is so smooth, has no problem with shimmer inks. Always writes. Always has Diamond Dragons Blood in it.

[Vermiliontea]

TLDR version: I think cheap ballpoint pens is a problem. I don't think cheap Chinese fountain pens is a problem. I think forgeries could be, but I don't see many of them out there.

Full version: My relationship with fountain pens is very strongly founded upon utility, and use. I spent several decades completely wearing out a handful of cheap Parker and Schaeffer "office" models of fountain pens. I used fountain pens exclusively, because (then) of one single reason: Ballpoint pens don't work. They really don't. The idea that ballpoint pens conquered the market because they were more "practical" or "dependable", is one of those truly crazy life-lies that humanity so easily slipped into as the "next thing". Carbon copy paper may have had something to do with it, but not functionality. In USA alone, people throw away 1.6 billion ballpoint pens every year! 1, 600 million pens thrown away, because *_THEY DO NOT WORK!_* , every year.

Anyway, people buy things for different reasons than mere functionality. Some things might be just delight at the quality or love for the design. And it might be to express themselves, perhaps letting a streak of vanity show through by pandering to luxury. Or it might be for a false appearance.
And it's the last thing, false appearance, that generations of Chinese clones have targeted. My feelings are that those who try to pose off with Chinese copies in such kind of pretend, are losers who dangerously court either a personal shaming or a self esteem crisis. I know of one such person, who told this story of how he broke down and vomited, when he suddenly realized how fake he was, brandishing a forged "Luis Vuitton" bag. So at one level, it doesn't seem to really work. 🤔

A useful and functional writing tool is a different thing though. It's one thing, and an actual forgery of a pen intended to be identified as a much more expensive pen from a luxury brand, is a different thing. And I frankly don't think a Jinhao X159 is that.

If you look at the pens on the market, there really isn't terrible much variations in styling. They fall into categories, where there is a large number of pens from different brands that share the same optics. The 'cigar' style, that is represented by many models from Montblanc, Sailor, Platinum, Pilot, Noodler, Jinhao, Wing Sung... is just one of them. Jinhao has worked themselves into this styling with a selection of different models, X450, X750, 159. The X159 is just another

There are meetings and events that I would go to and bring my Montblanc 149 to, just because there might be someone who knows what the Edelweiss represents. So I'm guilty of wanting to make a boast, I guess, flash some luxury. I have more exclusive pens than the 149, but in such a case I would gravitate towards the 149, or a Visconti, or a Pelican because they are more recognizable. So yes again, vanity on my part. I'm guilty. But maybe something else too, a hope to make contact and break the ice with someone else who is into fountain pens. I would bring a lowly Safari on travels for the exact same reason: It's recognizable. Or people don't react because they don't know. But what a fool I would make of myself, if I brought a forged 149 or (worse?) cloned Safari. Which is something any person interested in fountain pens would soon discover.

But most of the time I'm just interested in having a high-functional pen that I enjoy, and then a lot of my pens will do fine. If there is any risk for the pen, I take an expendable one, meaning usually a cheap one. If there is not, I often take one of my most exclusive pens, that is not recognizable, and people don't know what it is, just because I like using it.

The X159 is now also available with a 'M' nib and I think it's a very nice utility pen. It has a comfortably large nib #8 and is excellently sealed, not drying out. It is also now one of my 'give-away' pens to inspire people to discover fountain pen as a writing tool. Others would be the Safari, the Grip, the Baoer 801, the X750, the 159 (non-X).
"Normal" people regard spending more than some tens of $ for a pen as unacceptable. They don't know anything about more exclusive pens and it's a stratosphere that is completely uninteresting for them. Before I retired, I converted almost everybody in the office to fountain pen users. It wouldn't have been possible without Chinese pens, as everybody regarded even $200 pens as lunacy, never mind a $1000 pen.

A funny side note to the office going exclusively fountain pen, is that I never really even tried. It was an automatic process. They just saw what I was using and got curious. On the other hand I totally failed with my family, who I did try to convert. But no. Everybody is still running around in their houses and frantically looking for a ballpoint pen that works. ...And then they go to town and buy a few more.

[davidparrishproductions]

Oh I hope Helen and her wonderful accent make it into your Harry Potter video. I’m laughing inside at the idea of her “explaining” Harry Potter to you. That should only take a long weekend or so! 😂 looking forward to the Magic, my friend!

[puppetaccess]

Let's talk about the 72 year old 149 and the x159:

You described the x159 diverging from the 149 as:
1. Doesn't have the star.
2. Weight's all wrong.
3. Filler system (differs)
4. Everything
5. Nib
6. "All you're getting is the dimensions".

You clearly acknowledge that there's no attempt to defraud. There's no counterfeit. There's no attempt to even mimic the pen other than its dimensions and the presence of a band.

All of human progress is based upon the iteration of previous works. Put impediments to that at our collective peril.

If you don't see the X159 as a different design with vastly different design decisions and trade-offs I don't know what to tell you.

This is why MB doesn't file a cease and desist. They know that the claim is groundless.

[ichirofakename]

1. 2 years living in China cured me of the concept of intellectual property, which is incomprehensible nonsense there. So I can't be bothered worrying about copy(right) issues.
2. I wonder how many x159's are sold locally in China, compared to elsewhere.
3. Any banker or lawyer obliged by business conventions to carry a 149, but who could care less about fountain pens, should be pleased as punch to have a $6 alternative.

[scottlasky]

I think next week's show should be "Clone or Not Clone!" LOL!

[Draco-hr]

Better a real Lamy Safari than a fake Montblanc. Beautiful Tarot cards. I used to be a professional card reader. 🙂

[neilpiper]

Buy what pens you can afford and use them. I love my Jinhao fountain pens. I have had two X750s for years. I swapped the number 6 nib on for a Bock 1.1 stub nib.

[johnamoroso]

I agree for the most part and don't like the flat out copies. They may not be illegal but I feel they harm the original producers. And yes, it's lazy. Where I don't agree is your primary example. The cigar shaped pen is too generic and if they're copies, they're copying the Sheaffer Balance. I also place responsibly on both the producers and buyers. The companies wouldn't make these copies if they weren't selling.

[johnnyjet.]

A friend in the Army got some Tarot cards - I asked the question ‘should I have another beer?’ Shuffled the cards and laid down the three most powerful cards. The universe was saved because I had another beer!

[JefferyHall-cttr]

Hi HJ! Another interesting live show. As far as clones are concerned, straight out fakes, and they are out there, are not cool. But Chinese and other companies shouldn't be berated for making pens that look like other pens. As long as they are branded as what they are I have no problem. As far as the Montblanc 149 goes, that design goes back almost 70 years, and, come on, different companies have been making their versions of the Parker 51 for YEARS. Even Waterman's was making THEIR versions of a Parker 51 type pen with the Taperite series back in the day (not as good as a P-51, anyway). Now if someone wants to pop out a new version of the Waterman Edson. . .I think I would buy one!! Hemingway, are you going to become the poster boy for ecamm?. . .Maybe a chinese fake version of ecamm would be cheaper, and work just as well?