Rainn Wilson Tells Me Where I’m Wrong on Spirituality

For show notes and more, click here:

00:00 Opening
01:47 How Much Like Dwight Schrute Are You?
03:53 Religion and Pop Culture
07:22 Avoiding the Addiction to Celebrity
14:29 What Do You Think Happens After Death?
20:48 Religious Institutions
29:35 Suffering
34:55 Spirituality and The Office
42:20 What Would It Take to Believe Historic Christianity's True?
47:07 Closing Thoughts

[jeffmcintoshmusic]

This was a phenomenal conversation - Rainn is a very insightful, thoughtful person who clearly sees the deep need in people for a connection with the 'divine'. I am a Christian, so we would disagree in many ways, yet I found myself saying, "Yes!" at many of his insights. We were made for God (the One true God) and our hearts are restless apart from Him, as Augustine said.

[judyogle]

When in Bible School in Dallas, I knew a boy from the Middle East in the school and he had made friends with others from his country, all Muslim. When we visited, we shared our beliefs, the differences. He found it ucky that we believed that one was cleansed with blood. I learned a lot and I hope he did too, cause I enjoyed. He was a very nice young man.

[UXtatic]

I will follow this channel. This represents the type of discourse I believe we should have. Ultimately all religions in their best form represent love and compassion.

[mdcampbe]

I’ve been preaching in a college town for a couple of years now and this conversation was on point in so many ways…not the least of which were love and respect. Just felt like what we need right now…at least where I’m working.

[savedbygrace.slowedreverb]

That's the thing - if we can fully comprehend God - it's not really God. We can know him and his character, but no way we can wrap our minds around just how infinite his power is.

[bearios]

This was such an excellent and enlightening conversation! Thank you 😊🙏🏽

[jacquesproulx]

Congratulations to you both. I really liked the pleasant and spiritual atmosphere of this superb interview. The only weirdest thing in my opinion was towards the end where Russell said:
“What would it take for me to become bahá'i, it would be becoming convinced that Jesus is the Lamp or a lamp rather than a light, I believe he is the Light”.
This is exactly the kind of state of mind that the learned Jewish priests were in at the time of Christ's first coming: too attached to the lamp of Moses, and could not discern that the Light that was in the lamp of Moses was the same as that in the lamp of Christ, but in greater profusion and more adapted to the new requirements of the time. And this attitude or attachment of believers to their own and sometimes subjective interpretations of the meaning of the Scriptures, is repeated over and over in the history of the great monotheistic religions each time God sends a new Revelation in the guise of a new Lamp with a new Name! If we had had this kind of attachment to Moses, would we have been among those who could discern the true and essential Light under the new Lamp and the new Name of Jesus? In the book 'Thief in the Night' by Williams Sears, the following passage is very appropriate:
"The disciples found this question too difficult to answer. They, too, had been taught that Elias must appear before the coming of the Messiah. If Christ was the Messiah, then where was Elias? They went to Christ and put the question to Him directly. Jesus told them that Elias had come. Elias had already appeared among the people, He said, but no one had recognized him, nor understood this truth. Elias, Christ said, had come in a manner in which the people did not expect, and for this reason they did not know him. Patiently Christ explained this symbolical truth to the disciples: “If ye will receive it, this (John the Baptist) is Elias, which was for to come.” (Matthew 11:14)
This was an astonishing explanation. John the Baptist was Elias? Christ prefaced His explanation with the words: “If ye will receive it.” He meant apparently: If you can understand and accept this symbolical interpretation of the facts. Then Christ immediately added the words: “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 11:15)
This time there could be no doubt. He was warning His disciples that it would take spiritual ears to hear and believe in this truth. It was to be understood inwardly, not outwardly. This return, which Christ said had happened, had taken place in the spirit and not in the flesh. This is confirmed by John the Baptist himself. He was asked: “Art thou Elias?” He answered: “I am not.” He was asked: “Art thou that prophet?” He answered: “No.” (John 1:21)
Certainly Christ was not a liar. He knew that John was not Elias in the flesh. This is why it took spiritual ‘eyes’ to see and accept John as Elias. Once understood symbolically, the truth was simple: Elias had returned in the spirit in John the Baptist. If men were unable to understand the significance of this inward truth and accept it, Christ explained, they would continue to believe Him, Jesus, to be false. The return of Elias had come. John was the return of Elias—not in the flesh, but in the spirit. I found that this very event had been prophesied for John the Baptist in the Gospel of Luke: “... he (John) shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb ... And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias ...” (Luke 1:15, 17)
This was one of the most important clues I had yet found in the teachings of Christ. It was still another confirmation of why the Messiah, when He came again, would have a new name.

[mistybedwell]

Such a great conversation. Thank you for sticking your neck out (both of you) and doing this interview.

[abcdefgranger]

100% on what Rainn shared on being willing to engage suffering. The Where did you see God Podcast just completed a year-long, 52 episode series called "Sitting in Suffering", and being willing to confront hard questions and tense spaces proved to be beautifully fruitful.

[Betty-bjur]

Rainn talks powerfully about the early Christian church and it made me so proud!

[johnforbes]

Great job on asking important questions. Perhaps the spoiler for those who haven't watched this blog is that Rainn Wilson never once told you "...where I'm wrong on Spirituality". Do we see things from a different perspective? Perhaps, but neither viewpoint lacks validity. I think the message is not one of Evangelical Christians becoming Baha'is or Baha'is becoming Evangelicals, but instead a message of our working side by side to make this planet a better place for all human beings and more in line with the Spirit of Christ's Teachings. Let's put aside our "Otherness" and see the Divine too often buried deep in side of all of us. If we can do that, then this planet indeed has a chance to realize the potential to become the Kingdom of God on Earth.

[Betty-bjur]

Way to go Russell! I admire your willingness to engage with Rainn. Loved this!

[maryherbert]

Wonderful conversation. Thank you for having Rainn on.

[bethprather]

All of my main pastors I know or follow and losten to online, state, " The Office as their favorite show!" Oh and " Christmas Vacation as their favorite movie.."..?? Lol

[bethprather]

He is right on the first or earliest Christians.. They shared with others. GAVE to each other. I often laugh or smile at the extreme right post of fear of socialism leading to being communist. Then oh my Karl Marx sermons..I dont want to be communist and know we do have some social programs .. Like Social Security..
But if they use any scripture that is very conservative or out of text. ## The Truth is the early christians did share and help one another. Socialism..

[SR-bwsc]

Right on Rainn Wilson! ❤❤❤Serve love. Create community.

[paulaarchuleta]

Don the Con is the opposite of a Christian, you will see him on the golf course on Sunday morning.
Beatitudes:
Blessed are:
Poor in Spirit vs. proud
Meek vs. forceful & aggressive
Hungry & Thrist for Righteousness vs. seeking your own pleasures
Merciful vs. vengeful
Pure in Heart vs. evil heart
Peace Makers vs. looking for a fight

[jasonegeland]

I'd say that endless conscious suffering is most definitely not justice. Christ Jesus said to always forgive but Christians teach that he is going to do the very opposite of what he taught. Rainn Wilson mentions the early Church fathers. I'd highly suggest doing some research on them, the Nicene Creed in particular. There's a lot to unpack but well worth your time.

[mj]

Interesting interview! As a non-fundamentalist, non-evangelical Christian I do tend to agree with the view of Jesus/Joshua/Yeshua as more of a teacher and a Buddha-like figure. I admire the Bahai faith but where I disagree with them is they pretty much accept all the prophets, whereas I don't really believe in any prophets. (Of course they get into big trouble in the Muslim world for daring to recognize prophets after Muhammad.) Maybe the term prophet grew out of a corruption of some term for ancient astrologers who tracked and predicted movements of the stars, but I certainly don't believe God picks certain people to have special authority over anyone. That said, I think there are many great teachers and philosophers who helped to advance humanity with major religious figures like Jesus, Buddha, Zoroaster, Lao Tzu and others among them. However, I've read some of the Quran and I can't get past even the first few pages without having a lot of issues with it. I know enough about Muhammad's life to know I don't think he was a particularly nice guy and the God he describes is one of strict rules and punishment, who is to be blindly obeyed out of fear. So, while I give credit to the spirit of openness and inclusion in the Bahai faith I would argue that it's somewhat naive to believe that all religions are equal.

[brandonlyon]

Young people will find religion once they begin to experience what it is to get older, burying one's elder's, one's parents, one's contemporaries, and so on.