Palamites DEBUNKED in 60 seconds

[NicoFTWandMichael]

It's such an honor to have my question answered by a small Iranian man... I can die peacefully now. :, )

[iteadthomam]

Orthobros mad in the comments because they don't even understand the critique. Saying that "but energies proceed from the essence" is literally irrelevant to the argument. The argument is this, either the divine essence is knowing, willing, loving, etc. by virtue of 1) of itself or 2) by virtue of really distinct inseparably united divine energies.

If the former, then it leads to essence/energy real identity, if the latter, then God's essence in itself (i.e., without the consideration of energies) is deficient and imperfect, because it is only knowing, willing, loving, merciful, etc. only INSOFAR AS there are these inseparable energies proceeding from it. Therefore, they actualize God's essence and make him to be knowing, willing etc.

Thus, God's essence is actualized. Once again, Orthobros don't understand most basic arguments.

[NIA-]

EO's theology of God is completely different from any agreed-upon presuppositions about God and the Trinity in the West. It seemed so strange, and against Scripture and history, that I rejected it and embraced Catholicism.

[chrisiswright]

Aquinas says that because God is simple that we will see Him as He is but we will not comprehend Him (that is, fully as in scientifically or comprehensively), but we can say we know Him in the way that one can know a thing or subject in passing but not in the fullest depth

[garrett]

I think this misunderstands the Cappadocian idea of apophatic theology in regards to the Divine Essence.

[redacted]

I am of the mind that Neo-Palamism is nonsense, myself (Whether it is what Palamas even taught is debatable, as well), but I'm not sure if Astro's rebuttal of it in particular is an adequate objection.

If one goes by the proof-texts that these people use, then it would not really be accurate to say that the Divine Essence is endowed with perfections as a potency actualized by the Uncreated Energies. Rather, they would say that the Essence *transcends* the Energies utterly and infinitely, so it's not "the Divine Essence is not unless there is an energy of knowledge/power/infinity/etc. inseparably united to it, " so much as "The Divine Essence is incomparably greater than knowledge/power/infinity/etc, and these attributes are simply the tokens and natural symbols of it that we can contemplate." Put that way, you can almost compare it to the Neoplatonic idea of the Eternal Intellect that emanates from the One and holds all the Intelligible Forms within itself (Though not quite the same, since Palamas held that the energies are already superessential, whereas Plotinus et al would expressly deny this of the Intellect. So perhaps a more apt comparison is Proclus' Henads)

Of course, that is precisely what brings Neo-Palamites out of the soup and into the frying pan: It effectively results in Polytheism by positing two divinities: A lower one, which we can actually contemplate and participate in, and a higher one, which is utterly beyond all our contemplation and cannot be participated in, and infinitely transcends the second divinity. It's almost as if Neo-Palamites affirm a necessary production of something from the Godhead, except for the fact they stop short of full-on Spinozism by locating this procession within the Godhead itself, rather than identifying it with creation or somesuch.

Overall, a huge mess on their part. Love your work, nonetheless!

[TheGreekCatholic]

If his essence is not all knowing then how can he beget his word substantially?

[Gab]

Deficient? Why something beyond knowledge would be necessarily deficient?

[sorgulayanbirinsan]

Man you are cooked.İ dont know what you mean by “real distinction” but our understanding of distinction is “kat epinion” which means conceptual distinction, but it exists in reality.Many church fathers did kat epinion distinction in hypostases of trinity, natures of christ, etc.Distinction is conceptual but it exists in reality.İf not, then there is no distinction between Father Son and HS in reality, they all are the same, which is rejected by all church fathers. You suggest that if we posit a real distinction(as i have said i dont understand what do you mean by real distinction but i am gonna understand from it kat epinion distinction) between god's essence and energies, then god's essence would be deficient without the energies. But this is a false dichotomy. The essence and energies of god are not separate entities that can be divorced from one another. Rather, they are two ways of describing the one, simple, nature of god.
Energies are dependent/connected on the essence of God, they cannot exist apart from it, energies are in the Essence, but they are not the Essence(like the radiance of the sun is not the sun itself, but inseparable from it), they are different/distinct from the Essence, they are simple, they are unchanging, they are beings, energies do not form parts in God, because in God they are not divided things, they are manifestations of the Essence.The distinction between god's essence and energies is not a distinction between two separate entities, but rather a distinction between the simple essence of god and its natural, essential manifestations.The energies of god are not something added to his essence, but rather they are the very expressions of his essence. Think of it like a fountain of light, the fountain itself is the essence of god, and the light that flows from it are the energies of god. You cannot separate the two, for the light is merely the natural expression of the fountain.And just as the fountain is not deficient without the light, nor is god's essence deficient without its natural energies. the essence and energies are one, and they are equally eternal and inseparable.
The distinction between god's essence and energies is not a distinction that implies deficiency or potency in god's essence. Rather, it is a distinction that highlights the rich, dynamic nature of god's simplicity. To suggest that god's essence is deficient without its energies is to imply that god's essence is not perfect in itself, which is a notion that contradicts the catholic church's own teachings on divine simplicity.

[shalaby]

some thing distinct from the divine nature yet eternal and perfect the divine nature, yeaa isn't that paganism 101 basically?

[дмитрийдавыдов]

? He didn’t even come close to debunking anything