The failure of nationalism | Christopher Capozzola and Lex Fridman

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GUEST BIO:
Christopher Capozzola is a professor of history at MIT.

PODCAST INFO:

SOCIAL:

[gillianorley]

Nationalism is the belief that a nation does and should exist as an independent entity.

Traditionally, “nationalists” are people who fought against foreign occupation or colonial status in order to establish a nation.

Examples include: Ben Franklin, John Adams, Gandhi, Ho Chi Minh, etc.

Nationalism also includes the formation of a unified nation from a collection of former principalities or other forms of governance usually dating back to some period of feudalism or to the existence of kingdoms or empires.

Examples include the formation of nations in the 1800s such as Italy and Germany as well as numerous others.

The connection with Nazi Germany is incidental. Germany was nationalist, but so were many others. It’s like the old joke about m, “Hitler drank water, so if you drink water, you must be a Nazi.”

Many nations were nationalist (including the United States) and Germany was one of them.

Honestly, I think many people associate being “nationalist” with Nazism because they erroneously think that “NAZI” was short for “Nationalist Socialist German Workers’ Party” rather than the actual name which was “NATIONAL Socialist German Workers’ Party.”

Many people are THAT stupid.

[danielplainview]

This is what it looks like to dance around the truth so as not to get fired or ostracized by your peers, friends, etc. in academia.

[neuropuritan_zealot]

If it includes wypipo, then it is automatically bad.
~T. Intellectual~

[muchomusiclibre]

The opposing ideology to nationalism used to be referred to as internationalism, until certain people took offense to a simple word and changed the word to globalism. The USA is the world leader in globalism, and that's largely why it's so divided and fractured internally, because the prime directive of globalism is to focus on building capital and infrastructure outside of your borders, and tends to neglect the welfare of people inside those borders.

[sterlingveil]

Xenophobia exists for a reason. It's not a pure downside like viruses and cancer because conflicts between people and nations are very real. In the absence of a game-theoretically sound contract (with credible enforcement mechanisms), predation is the Evolutionarily Stable Strategy and clinging to the Nation-State is one clear way of protecting yourself from that predation.

[Travisthefox]

The problem with nationalism (and all the others) every definition, of anyone explaining, anything about these topics, begins with "nationalism to me is" no definition given lol

[dh]

Are you guys being a bit simplistic? Or too general?
I see a large gray area for most all countries in the world; we are more alike than different. For example, here in America we have experienced "citizen nationalism" as well as "exclusionary nationalism, " i.e., we are proud of the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, three equal branches of government etc. We have similar values and an eclectic culture. These are foundations of our "citizen nationalistic" spirit. But then WE, the US have practiced "exclusionary nationalism" here at home to our dismay.
First with moving or killing native Indian tribes & taking their lands for White settlers, then the poor, starving Irish who populated the Northeast, the Chinese on the west coast that we used to build the railroad, & bc of Pearl Harbor, we stole Californian Japanese-American land, put them in camps e.g., in Montana and after WWII never gave them back the rich their farmland. This is nothing to enslaving Blacks for hundreds of years.
Nationalism of any type, in any country just is a fact. Hopefully Nation-states will haves Leaders that can set a course for freedom, democracy. Yes I love my country 🇺🇲 but I'm practical. I see the good, bad & ugly but remain optimistic for the future. All my forefathers 1st began working, fighting for this country in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, both World wars etc.

[jona_KardCiv]

I think there are degrees to everything being talked about here. It's useless to view every other country with distrust but it is also horrible to think that no other countries poses a risk.

[FearlessPP]

This guy’s opinion on nationalism should be automatically discarded when he said inclusive nationalism should be defended. It’s no coincidence that America started to go down hill after the hart-cellar act that allowed mass immigration from all over the world. It should be obvious that putting people with different cultures together can only foster tension. Of course, I’d like the best immigrants from all over the world, but we’re not receiving that. We think "Give me your tired, your poor“ is a good idea.

when we see nationalism we see it through a modern Eurocentric lens, which is a left wing lens. We only see it’s evil, but never it’s good or it’s necessity. Everyone outside of the west sees nationalism as a necessity that goes without saying.

[dillamadukes]

I haven't listened to the whole interview in its totality, but what I've seen thus far can only be characterized as steadfast affirmation of Mr. Capozzola's own sociopolitical sensibilities. His idealistic reframing of the ubiquitous systemic racial and religious tribalism that characterized early American life well into the 20th century (what he refers to as "civic nationalism") as desirable in contrast with other "illegitimate" expressions of nationalism is specious at best. One needn't "hate" foreign cultures to feel compelled to preserving their own identity, institutions, laws and cultural norms. Contemporary ideas of nationhood and our attitudes to unfettered migration are a historical novelty and far more radical than most nationalist positions.

[pirizzo]

When the guest mentions paying taxes for someone or going to war for others, he sounded absurd. Who would want to do those things in contemporary America? The whole country is crabs in a barrel, essentially trying to eek out a small advantage on some con job of an economy before the next recession basically wipes everyone out. Who would have any national feelings for a place like that? I certainly don't, and I absolutely would not fight for the US in any war. No one in this country really shows any real respect towards veterans, and the wars so frequently have nothing to do with a threat or real interest of the people of America.

[OmarO]

I would argue that the United States also has a tradition of exclusionary nationalism.

[leonardbundra]

Two tribes of monkeys are facing each other -
Angry and throwing rocks at each other. The red monkeys are throwing rocks at the blue monkeys, behind the blue monkeys is a large billboard saying “throw rocks at them” - which the red monkeys see as they are facing the blue monkeys. Behind the red monkeys is a large billboard saying “throw rocks at them” - which the blue monkeys see as they face the red monkeys.
If the red monkeys turn around and face away from the blue monkeys - they see the billboard saying “throw rocks at them” - the same message the blue monkeys see as the throw rocks at the red monkeys…

Who wrote and placed the billboards ?
Who has a vested interested in doing so ?
Who has a vested interest in keeping the monkeys fighting, while also insuring there is no clear winner ?

The maker of the rocks ?
The monkeys themselves ?
The makers of the billboards ?

Were the makers of the billboards merely paid by someone else to paint, assemble and place the billboards ?

Only someone above the fray would have the perspective required to architect the design and the placement of the billboards.

To what end ?

[HolographicSweater]

the exclusionary aspect of nationalism isn't inherently racist, for example America isn't an ethnostate, so the exclusionary aspect of American nationalism is directed towards groups and individuals which exhibit un-American tendencies, notably INCLUDING racism...

[TeaSmuggler]

I would be curious to see what he thinks "the success of nationalism" would look like. Or what "the failure of globalism" would look like. Because looking through history I don't see many obvious alternatives to some degree of nationalism.

Want go back to living in a tribal / feudalist society? Be my guest, but count me out. Want to unite the world in one big state? How to do that without conquering the world by military power? Want to invite the entire world into existing democratic countries? What happens if they choose to vote for non-democratic leaders?


As problematic as nationalism is, I think we to have accept that sovereign will be the only practical system for the next 100 years. "But that's not what nationalism means" - Like it or not, to many people and scholars, nationalism does mean exactly that: Sovereign states. Patriotism on the other hand, is often just defined as a vague feeling without actual ideological content. Patriotism sounds good, but it's a relatively cheap label to put on yourself. It doesn't really mean anything.

[Leneufcinqcergy]

Lex didn't seem prepared for this discussion. He never pushed back on some of the implicit meanings in the guest's point of view. I mean what is this show? "Welcome to the Echo Chamber"

[nicolasgrim]

Lex Glows andddd everyoneeee knowwwws!

[ryandoyle]

This conversation was truly incredible and shows Lex’s nuanced understanding of some of the core problems with todays governance. Inspiring.