103. Laziness

Episode 103. Laziness

We’re taking it easy! In episode 102 of Overthink, Ellie and David take a leisurely dive into laziness, discussing everything from couchrotting to the biology of energy conservation. They explore Devon Price’s idea of the ‘laziness lie’ in today’s hyperproductive society and search for alternatives to work through Paul Lefargue’s 19th century campaign for ‘the right to be lazy.’ They also look into the racialization of laziness in Ibn Khaldun and Montesquieu’s ideas on the idle tropics, and think through how the Protestant work ethic punishes laziness, even when technology could take care of the work.

Overthink is a philosophy podcast hosted by your new favorite professors, Ellie Anderson (Pomona College) and David Peña-Guzmán (San Francisco State University). Check out our episodes for deep dives into concepts such as existential anxiety, empathy, and gaslighting.

Works Discussed
Devon Price, Laziness Does Not Exist
Barthes, “Let us dare to be lazy”
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience
Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel
Christine Jeske, The Laziness Myth
Ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah
Paul Lefargue, The Right to be Lazy
Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, The Communist Manifesto
Montesquieu, The Spirit of the Laws
Max Weber, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

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[JessicaCorderoR]

Fun fact. This is the first podcast I've ever listened to, and I already think it is the best there can be.
I wanted to practice my English comprehension and enjoy a good philosophical talk but I got so much more. You guys are so lovely. Thank you ❤

[robertalenrichter]

I hate being the guy who's always talking about German, but etymology is so interesting. "Müßiggang" means "idleness", but its root doesn't. "Muße haben", literally "having muse", refers to a form of leisure which predisposes towards or better equips for complex thought and creativity. People will say, "Zur Zeit fehlt mir dafür die Muse", "right now, I don't have the muse for that..." The word "Gang" can mean both "gait" and "going", and one often finds "Müßiggang" connoted positively in this sense, as a sort of leisurely meandering, actually as a particularly civilised state of mind. It pops up quite a bit in Romantic literature, and is still in common usage. Perhaps this is the reason that a different word came to designate unadulterated laziness -- "faul", literally "rotten". I find it interesting that English has no word to designate a noble form of leisure. Daydreaming is supposed to be bad as well.

[michaelsintef]

I wasn’t sure how this episode would evolve and I almost passed it up. But, it was really great. You guys do such a great job with these topics. Thank you for your hard work on laziness!

[DemetriosKongas]

What an enjoyable podcast about laziness! Thanks for sharing! You make some interesting references to the Latin and Ancient Greek words for laziness. Actually, they used different words to capture the different nuances of meaning.
The Latin pigritia that gives paresse in French has the equivalent in ocnereia in Ancient Greek. Ocnereia (οκνηρεία) < ocneros < ocneo = shirk from, I am indolent, slow. As with every quality and power the Greeks even concocted a deity Ocnos, Ocnus in Latin, who was condemned to knit endlessly a rope of straw that was being eaten by a donkey!
The Greek aergia (αεργία) that is being referred to by David, is the rough equivalent of inertia in Latin. A+ergia < a+ergon in Greek (lack of work), in+ertia < in+ars (lack of skill, art) in Latin.
David makes an interesting reference to Montesquieu’s climate determinism (which, by the way, is quite popular) in explaining different levels of development observed in the world. We can contrast this with the Marxist view. Marxists tried to explain the fact that certain peoples lived in a primitive communistic or communal state when Europeans had reached capitalism with an unprecedented development of the productive forces by reference to the lavishness of nature in which those peoples lived so that they did not have a strong motivation to develop their productive forces.

[DesiredAstrum]

The points presented remind me a lot of Byung-Chul Han’s works. I’m a therapist and sometimes I recommend The Burnout Society to my clients. Now, I can add this to my resource list. Thanks!

[oguz]

I think there is only one angle you have not mentioned or i have missed which is the acknowledging part of laziness internally or externally. It definitely feels bad for someone to rot but when its pointed out by somebody else we usually rationalize it as a much needed 'taking a break' situation which is extremely normal for the time being! I think it differs from being an internal conflict

[pavlova]

v1

Laziness without the necessary ascription of moral blame is being undisciplined. It has a negative connotation, but whether ultimate blame can ever be ascribed to a person is another debate. It is particularly vicious, we could suppose, when a person, for whatever reason that may be, has made something of an attitude or rationalisation for their reluctance to do what is necessary. That we have moral imperatives and we find ourselves reluctant, or that at the very least following through is a matter of habitualisation, I think are rather uncontroversial claims, and so therein remains a foothold for the concept of laziness.

v2

Laziness without the necessary ascription of moral blame is being undisciplined. It is uncontroversial to point out that following through with achieving goals is a matter of habitualisation. People also find themselves reluctant to take action for numerous reasons which may not necessarily be rooted in 'being lazy'. However, these conditions of habitualisation and reluctance make possible a new attitude, which is the rationalisation of the reluctance itself, so as to say that a goal or imperative is not genuine if one is reluctant, or habit-building cannot be really worthwhile if habits necessarily begin unformed. It is debatable whether we could call this laziness or a lack of self-efficacy, and whether a person can ever be ultimately blamed. In any case, it does seem that if laziness does not exist, shame should not exist as a motivator, and yet it does.

[robertalenrichter]

Speaking of expectations regarding productivity being adjusted to accord with technological capabilities, automobiles have gotten heavier in recent decades, thus using up the savings afforded by greater fuel efficiency. As with work, less doesn't seem to be possible. I'm not even talking here about salaried work and consumption being linked because I suspect that there is something of a more anthropological nature "at work", or maybe the logic of systems theory, or whatever they call it.

[iamyuvasrikishore]

what is meant by concepts in philosophy? Can you please explain with examples?

[hosnahenainia]

Please make an episode about education taking into consideration Bryan Caplan's ideas from his book: The Case Against Education

[stephanesigouin]

To listen or not to listen to this particular podcast? Is it entertainment, is it work? In my case, I teach philosophy at college, so it could pass for work, but since I'm on a lunch break...

[ezgiulu]

The fact that I was knitting during the whole episode 😅😅

[librarysciencekp-hbpd]

I think laziness exists? As in, I don’t consider rest a “lazy” activity. I think rest is very active. Anyone who has ever tried to do nothing knows how difficult and almost impossible of a task it is. And I think work and working really hard can be lazy activities. If you have been told that your worthiness is determined by how well you do in school, going to school and working really hard at school is the easiest thing in the world to do. You have literally been trained to be in school. Anything anyone has been taught to do 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for as long as they can remember, that person can do with minimal effort and ingenuity for the rest of their life. Work in this context would be not studying. Invention in this context would be developing a sense of self and a sense of self-worth outside of the parameters defined for you.

[steveschertzer]

I was going to listen to this yesterday, but I was too lazy. 😅