Are humans evil? Rutger Bregman on 'veneer theory' | Big Think

Are humans evil? Rutger Bregman on 'veneer theory'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How have humans managed to accomplish significantly more than any other species on the planet? Historian Rutger Bregman believes the quality that makes us special is that we "evolved to work together and to cooperate on a scale that no other species in the whole animal kingdom has been able to do."

Pushing back against the millennia-old idea that humans are inherently evil beneath their civilized surface, which is known as 'veneer theory', Bregman says that it's humanity's cooperative spirit and sense of brotherhood that leads us to do cruel deeds. "Most atrocities are committed in the name of loyalty, and in the name of friendship, and in the name of helping your people," he tells Big Think. "That is what's so disturbing."

The false assumption that people are evil or inherently selfish has an effect on the way we design various elements of our societies and structures. If we designed on the assumption that we are collaborative instead, we could avoid the "self-fulfilling prophecy" of selfishness.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RUTGER BREGMAN:

Rutger Bregman is a historian and author. He has published five books on history, philosophy, and economics. His books Humankind (2020) and Utopia for Realists (2017) were both New York Times bestsellers and have been translated in more than 40 languages. Bregman has twice been nominated for the prestigious European Press Prize for his work at The Correspondent. He lives in Holland.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TRANSCRIPT:

RUTGER BREGMAN: There's a really old theory in Western culture that scientists call veneer theory. The idea here is that our civilization is only a thin veneer, only a thin layer, and that below that veneer, sort of real raw human nature resides. And that when something small happens—or big, you know we're in a crisis or in a pandemic right now—that humans reveal who they really are, that deep down we're just selfish. We are beasts. We may even be monsters. But luckily, we have this civilization that is basically protecting us from what we really are. Now, this idea, this theory, veneer theory, is very old and very dominant in Western culture. It goes all the way back to the ancient Greeks. You also find it within Christianity, Orthodox Christianity. Think about St. Augustine talking about the notion of original sin, that we're all born as sinners. And you also look at modern capitalism. And again, I think the central dogma of our current capitalist system is that people are selfish. So this veneer theory, it comes back again and again and again in our history. And I think the only problem with it is that it's simply wrong. So in the last 20-25 years, we've seen so much evidence accumulating from anthropology and from archaeology and from biology and from psychology and sociology with one main message which is that basically, deep down, most people are pretty decent and that this capacity for cooperation is actually our true superpower.

Human beings have evolved to cooperate. If you ask the question, what makes us so special? Are we selfish? Are we very smart? Are we very violent or strong or powerful or whatever? What is the reason that we conquered the globe? Why not the bonobos or the chimpanzees? And I think the answer is that we have evolved to work together and to cooperate on a scale that no other species in the whole animal kingdom has been able to do. So, on the one hand, we're the friendliest species in the animal kingdom, but on the other hand, we're also the cruelest species, right? I've never heard of a penguin that says, ""Let's exterminate another group of penguins. Let's lock them up in prisons. Let's kill them all."" These are singularly human crimes. One of the disturbing things actually if you study the history of warfare and of genocides is that these things are often highly moral phenomena. It's not as if there are a lot of sadists thinking, ""Oh, we just enjoy killing other people."" You know, those people do exist, but they're very, very rare. Actually most atrocities are committed in the name of loyalty, and in the name of friendship, and in the name of helping your people. That is what's so disturbing. It's really the dark side of friendliness. If you study soldiers, German soldiers in the second world war, and you ask the question, why did they keep on fighting in 1944, in 1945, even though it was clear they were going to lose the war? Well, psychologists back...

[bigthink]

Do you think that humans are evil by nature?

[EugeneKhutoryansky]

Ants in an ant colony are much better at cooperating than humans are. And ant colonies engage in genocidal warfare against other ant colonies of the same species. Chimpanzees sometimes do this too. We are not so unique after all.

[colonelradec]

very evil. most people just dont realize it. we all think we are good but we overlook a million evil acts every day.

[emilythefilelady]

Some people don’t realize that they are actually sheep, and evil.

[bigdickpornsuperstar]

The villain in the story rarely sees themselves at the bad guy.

[joshparrott]

Human history is one population replacing another for land and resources.

[oomfiekat]

Don't forget all the cruel atrocities we commit to non human animals on a daily basis.

[ongoingsky]

Yes and probably not as intelligent as we think we are.

[Maniceureka]

Good and evil are too simplistic terms to put on complex beings, nevermind that they are also completely subjective in the end.
But if humans are evil, then we deserve no compassion, and it would be morally right to destroy us. And that includes a lot of "evil" starving children in the world.
Replace "evil" with hedonistic and irresponsible, and I think things get more interesting.

[iannacn]

95% yes. A kindhearted person is like finding a rare jewel these days.

[kanelowrey]

“The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts."

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

[jilligain]

I think if you purposefully try to hurt someone, that’s evil. Also, hurting or taking advantage of more vulnerable people or animals is evil as well

[SleepyJoe]

Human nature is the major reason why there is so much pain and suffering in this world

[sjacks]

Humans are inherently selfish. And inherently empathetic.
That can be good or evil.

We are social animals.
Cooperation and mutually beneficial relationships have proven to serve our selfish needs.

Empathy can be used to manipulate or bully people
or it can be used to help people

As you said, We inherently feel threatened by those different from us.
But it’s environmental and learned factors that teach us what 'different' is.

It's up to us as a society to cultivate cooperation and benevolence in each other

[madoleenc]

Na we’re just evil.. people tend to eat their own children during famines

[PunkSolarx]

Humans are not evil for the most part, Humans are survivors. Its the environment that causes the negative motivations and behavioral patterns we see. Despite what people tend to believe, there no such thing as ( Humans Nature). From before we are born, we are effected by the stresses, the environment in which our mothers, are experiencing. Then we grow and are compounded by those stresses and systemic ideologies, which in-turn shape our thoughts, opinions, behaviors and motivations. If we were to change the environment, to say one more beneficial to all people. You would see a change in behavior, among the people in that new environment. The first generation, of a new environment may hold some old tendencies form the previous system but as time progress they too will adapt to the new environment. Subsequent generation would be completely adapted to the new environment.

[LeonardPC]

we live in a reality where the thieves and the liars are rewarded while the good are put down its just the way it is

[krazoChrist]

We know we are evil. We readily accept this in regarding our destructive capacity on nature, when we acknowledge our inability to obey the most basic and reasonable moral restrictions, and in how swiftly our hatred and anger are kindled at the smallest provocation. Look at the patience and dedication it takes to do good, and how quickly it is ruined by evil on a whim. A long and good marriage can be destroyed by "temptations" in an instant - but where are the temptations to do good, and preserve it? Our conscience is an uncomfortable burden driving most people into states of anxiety and depression because they simply can't do what they know they should. Looking back to evolution is just a distraction, keeping us from focusing on the results of our immorality here and now - and what inevitably arises from the selfish, hateful, wrathful, lustful, and prideful living we love to boast in. Or you can say "it's all grey" and go back to sleep. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

[josephkitchen]

Define evil? That’s the problem, definitions. Ask ten people what evil is and you’ll get twenty definitions.

[yoppindia]

Humans are the most cruel and kindest creature at same time, two sides of same coin.