Ep258: Demonology of Tibet - Dr Ben Joffe

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In this interview I am once again joined by Dr Ben Joffe, anthropologist and scholar practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism.

Dr Joffe begins an interview series on demonology with a discussion about the spirit ontology of Tibet and the Himalayas. Dr Joffe explores the pre-Buddhist frameworks of relating to spirits and considers the degrees to which the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet erased, modified, or even incorporated those frameworks.

Dr Joffe explains the unique methods of spirit domination, missionary geomancy, and other magickal techniques found in Buddhist Tantra and how these means were used to establish Buddhism in Tibet.

Dr Joffe also discusses the inevitability of spirit contact for Tantric practitioners, what to do about predatory demons, the misunderstandings of Buddhist converts about the paranormal, and recalls his own stressful experiences with the spirit world.

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Topics Include:

00:00 - Intro
01:06 - 3 part demonology
03:31 - Interaction with imported Indian cosmology
04:32 - A scholarly caveat
05:47 - Pre-Buddhist Tibetan entity and spirit frameworks
10:16 - Land spirits
12:23 - Drawbacks of secularisation and psychologising of Buddhism
14:34 - Right relationship with entities
18:16 - Origins of dedicating the merit
18:16 - The arrival of tantra in Tibet and Padmasambhava’s spirit domination
22:30 - The essence of Buddhism
24:12 - Did Buddhism weaken Tibet?
26:11 - Tantric missionary technology of spirit domination
32:32 - Degrees of Buddhist integration with Tibetan practices and rituals
40:00 - Dr Robert Mayer’s work to reevaluate the terma tradition
43:30 - Beyul and opening sacred sites
47:10 - Offering practices and Chod
50:47 - Spirit mediumship and offending spirits
54:13 - Geomancy
56:41 - Staking the demoness of the land
01:01:03 - Dark tantra and the ethics of subjugation
01:05:59 - What is a demon?
01:06:57 - Facist tantra and Western occultists
01:09:12 - The role of compassion
01:10:07 - Tantra as institutional shamanism?
01:13:11 - Interviewing protector deities
01:15:15 - Perceiving spirits
01:18:07 - Misunderstandings of Western Buddhist converts
0:24:54 - Buddhism and the cultural substrate
01:25:47 - IFS and shamanism
01:27:55 - Completion stage practice and the logic of yoga
01:30:49 - Are spirits just your own mind?
01:35:09 - Dudjom Lingpa’s demon encounter in a dream
01:39:09 - Brahma, Buddha, and various levels of beings
01:40:44 - Are yidams just archetypes?
01:42:19 - Paradoxes of protection from spirits
01:45:35 - Predatory demons
01:48:29 - Many faces of Buddhism
01:50:05 - Outer, inner, secret
01:52:08 - Dream yoga and visionary sex
01:57:35 - Inevitability of spirit contact
01:58:09 - Ben’s stressful experiences with the spirit world
02:06:10 - Alien abduction experiences
02:11:42 - Night terrors
02:13:30 - Cognitive dissonance of tantric practitioners
02:15:30 - Priestly class mindset
02:18:09 - Real tantric training
02:22:05 - Logistical challenges of creating tantric adepts
02:23:57 - Ben’s magickal training

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Previous episodes with Dr Ben Joffe:

To find out more about Dr Ben Joffe, visit:

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For more interviews, videos, and more visit:

Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James

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Wow, great. To me, Ben Joffe represents the best of the scholar / practitioner, bringing a great depth of rigorous understanding together with a path of practice and discovery. Much gratitude to Guru V and Ben J for making for this episode.

kidlotus

Yeah, I agree, one of the best interviews on this channel. I have easily had the freakiest experiences on a Vajrayana retreat in the mountains and it seemed to be all emanating from the presiding lama who's father was a secret lama and exorcist, It started with hearing lots of demons and ghost stories sitting around after dinner, then I would go back to my tent at night and encounter a whole range of very palpable beings and visions. I never experinced anything like it and it went on nightly for several nights never to return after the retreat. So It doesnt matter if you dont believe in that kind of thing or not, get involved with the right lama in the right time and place and it will happen. If you want to keep your scientific-materialist world view then maybe pursue the science of mind Western Buddhists, I forget the guy's name, I remember Dzognsar Khyentse went through a phase where he seemed to feel obliged to deride the guy during the course of a talk.

shemusmcquillaide

Great interview. The psychologising of Western Buddhism - yes - it's so in its head.. I see the same happening with shamanism, it's been turned into a nice, safe, alternative form of secular psychotherapy, it's taken the spirits out of it. Shamanism (and tantra) is red in tooth and claw :) I must invite Dr Joffe to write for Sacred Hoop Magazine, the magazine about shamanism I've edited since 1993.

NicholasBreezeWood

Regarding practicing regularly but not really enough, Namkhai Norbu used to often say essentially, "we're not really Dzogchen practitoners, you dont need to go there, those people are really full on, they are not normal, they are always practicing even when they are sleeping and thats what it takes, you can be normal and be a good Dzogchen practioner, Vajrayanaists can easily miss the point of practice to realize and be in your real nature. I was just listening to an interview with Palga Rinpoche done by on eof his students a very popular Youtuber in India, Palga Rinpoche says, "Yeah you have to do your formal yidam practice 12 hours per day, we essentially brain wash ourselves to become the yidam deity." When you think you are really pretty decent because you do 3-4 hours for 12 years its really kind of devastating actually and throw in the fact the guru really doesnt remember who you are and then you dont see him for three years because of lockdown, you really have to ask yourself what you are doing with your life, but there's not going back so you just hope something someday will happen before you die.

shemusmcquillaide

Wow, this is such an excellent and useful teaching among so many mouth farters on the channel. Thank you Dr Joffe and thank you Steve!

tenzinthomasmasami

🙏😍✨In “DUNE”, the Bene Gesserit Witches can develop the power of “Truth-Sense”, and I feel like I’m channeling that ability now - And it’s telling me :

Dr Ben Joffe is absolutely 💯 sincere, and…
EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS 100% TRUE!!!!💥🤯💥

Mind : Blown.

Bless You Both for this WONDEROUS Interview!!! ✨🕉️❤️‍🔥✨✨✨✨✨

onyxdefortuitous

The bat and heart illustrations really illuminated this for me. 😄 J/k, fascinating interview.

brotherk

Wow! This is such a great conversation. Ben, there are many people who this conversation is helpful for. It’s a refuge in a way. Even if some might not receive conscious benefit, some do.. For those who derive benefit it is very helpful for counteracting the alienating feeling of having these experiences which you mentioned. So, thank you both for sharing.

spiritsonghealingarts

very interesting insight into ancient tibet and mystical activity happening there...i'm always fascinated with the concept of nagas or "lue" in tibetan tradition during eve of tibetan new year

bhuMarab

This was one of the best interviews ever.

MonacoBlast

Thank you Guru Steve for continuing to interview such people. Much respect and gratitude for adding the 'chapters' or whatever those are called that I can click on the time stamps and see what is in the video. Been watching you since Daniel Ingram, have him on again sometime! You rock!

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