I Bought An Elves Frame Anonymously (again)

In this video we will be assessing an Elves Falath Evo frameset with a carbon fibre expert and the mechanic (Aaron) who built the Porsche production frameset up. We find outselves deep on a carbon rabbit hole here. So I hope you learn from this video as much as I did from the experience.

#Elves #Frameset

[julmeissonnier]

There is one more very big reason to use glass fiber in the steerer (and not elsewhere) it is that the modulus of glass is much lower but the elongation at break is much (3 to 4 times) higher. In practice, that means that in normal use the carbon is the one carrying pretty much all the load and the glass fiber will just stretch and carry very little load... But if you have a big crash or hit a big pot hole or another large object on the road the carbon with snap at something like 2% elongation while it will take about 7% elongation to break the glass fiber... That can very well make the difference between a fork that snaps off clean immediately and one that gets crushed but with the fork remaining attached to the steerer because of the glass fiber... If there is one place on a bike that you nevr want to snap off clean it is the fork steerer, guarranteed face plant... Also, do not call it "fiberglass" which usually refers to much cheaper and lower property glass fiber reinforced polyester resin used in boats while this is glass fiber reinforced with the same epoxy resin used with the carbon fiber...

[justincouch]

In the aircraft industry, a very fine layer of glass is used as a visibilty layer for crack detection. It is exceedingly difficult to see hairline cracks or stress marks in carbon, while glass has an easy to see white marks. Personally in high stress locations, I'd prefer to see a layer of glass in there.

[ktube]

I'd love to get a "what actually matters" with these types of videos. What will lead to me riding down the road and have the frame spontaneously collapse, burst into flames, leaving me to get eaten by a tiger, vs. "it's just not perfect, but it's fine". The focus on BB area has been enlightening, the nice even circles and all of that makes sense, but what's the point where it matters? I know "fine" is hard to quantify, I'm 151 pounds and my fine may be far more tolerable than a 250 pound rider that slams ruts and potholes and such. But, give me a level of what matters on some level.

[petef]

My Falath was supplied with an out of spec c-ring headset adapter (interface between the upper race and the first spacer). I wasn't even aware of this except they sent me an email asking me to check the frame for chipping of the paint. There was very minor chipping of the paint around the top of the headtube.

Long story short - they are sending me a second frame. Very happy to have purchased from them considering the original frame is fine.

[neelsahay]

As a composites guy, I have no issues with glass fiber being used in steerer tubes. It may be unnecessary in terms of preventing corrosion if a titanium expansion plug system is used, though. As for what the frame is called, "composite" would be an all-encompassing term. I recall some high end brands (Time?) also use other materials like kevlar for impact resistance in their layups too.

[brianboschma]

Thanks for the great leg work on the F.G. in the steer tube. In the marine industry, where corrosion is a huge issue, carbon rudder posts, carbon booms, carbon masts, and carbon spin poles are all buffered with F.G. where stainless fittings are attached. The carbon will cause corrosion of the metal surfaces in short order. I just assembled a Falath frame and was happy to see your video with the FG interior of the steer tube as I used a metal tensioner internally.

[robertgray]

Aside from stiffness/weight issues, for this consumer the most important consideration is how the use or absence of fiberglass impacts the longevity of the frame, especially regarding galvanic corrosion. I'd love to see a look back at the life expectancy of 5, 10, 15 year old carbon frames based on their choice of materials for things like bottom bracket shells and dropouts on rim brake frames.

[randomdudeontheinternet]

Honestly, I kinda prefer the glasfiber being there. Low weight is severely overappreciated in the cycling community and galvanic corrosion is one hell of a bitch, especially when you are dealing with expensive stuff, that you don't want to break.
In regards to weight: Yes, the lower the better, but there is a point where the tradeoff in stuff as longevity, usability and aero is just too significant to ignore (unless you are professionally racing and have mechanic or a sponsorship, that makes you not give a shit about durability)

[summaable]

I can't really see what the issue is here....The fork tube has a layer of fibreglass that will prevent corrosion and make it stiffer, adding less than 10grams of weight. Then saying "Its expected for a heavy frame" . My all up race weight falath evo is 7.8kg with wahoo roam/pedals/bottle cages. What weight was he expecting for a fully aero race bike?

[daryltill]

I can’t help but wonder if mainstream carbon frames would also stand up to such scrutiny

[hamishosborne]

That’s a lot of effort for an interesting conversation starter. Thanks for the effort, always love your videos

[foxtrot]

Great work! Interesting that they paid more attention to the seat post portion on the anonymous buy. Maybe it's not a no compromise frame but you got to appreciate the value that it offers. Looking forward to the "on bike" review

[PeterPutz]

Hmm interesting, I've cut two Cannondale Hi Mod steerers, a Cube and a Winspace Steerer and can confirm they are all carbon all the way through. I wasn't aware of fibreglass being used in carbon frames in the structural areas. I've heard of it being a barrier between differing metals. Nice video Cam, thanks.

[StanleyKubick]

What I'm most impressed by is their transparency in the customer support. Their answers sound factual, not like a cop-out

[pmcmpc]

Would love to see you shine the same light on BMC's reputation for fork failures & recalls, misaligned rear triangles, and their crazy threaded foam steerer filler. But that won't happen, will it ... P.S. the fibreglass layer inside is a normal and good thing - regardless of overall quality.

[daviddjerassi]

A great video packed with quality information i have said it before NO other platform is doing this or even coming close Thank you Cam & RCA keep them coming please my personal choice Alloy all the way .

[travispyle]

Cam, love the info you are presenting here and they way you are doing it. You are really shining right now. Keep up the good work.

[alexkerslake]

While the depth of analysis on these frames is impressive, we are overlooking the bigger picture concerning the product and the purpose of these reviews. I would argue that these frames offer an incredibly good value for their price, as the quality, performance, and aesthetic output surpass what else is on the market for their cost bracket. As an owner of the Falath, I can confidently state that my experience with the frame has been flawless, with the exception of a minor overspray (non)issue, for my custom paint job.

The notion that a small sleeve of fiberglass, which serves to prevent galvanic corrosion, is considered a weight penalty is laughable, given its weight of 5-10 grams.

[SioLazer]

My bike mechanic/husband overheard what you were saying and thankfully was interested enough to chat with me about this. Most curious to me was that although he has not seen fiberglass in the steerer tubes, he does mention galvanic corrosion as being the reason for seized seat posts. So, reminder from a bike mechanic to remove and inspect periodically.

[five_letters]

an official answer from an elves bike
Please be reassured that having a thin layer of fibre glass inside the fork steerer is quite common in the manufacture of carbon fibre forks, at all levels, as indicated by the independent industry expert at the end of the Cam Nichols video and has two purposes.

1. Reaming of the inside of the fork steerer: The inside of the fork steerer needs to be reamed to ensure that it is perfectly round to accepts the expander plug. Carbon fibre is too hard to be effectively reamed, so the thin layer of fibre glass allows the inside of the fork steerer to be correctly reamed for a perfect match to the expander plug.

2. Galvanic corrosion. Carbon fibre and metals such as aluminium have a habit of bonding together over time. Fibre glass does not have the same issue. The expander plug used on Elves Bikes, like most brands, is aluminium. To ensure that the expander plug does not corrode and bond to the inside of the fork steerer, the same thin layer of fibre glass is used to place a barrier between
2. Galvanic corrosion. Carbon fibre and metals such as aluminium have a habit of bonding together over time. Fibre glass does not have the same issue. The expander plug used on Elves Bikes, like most brands, is aluminium. To ensure that the expander plug does not corrode and bond to the inside of the fork steerer, the same thin layer of fibre glass is used to place a barrier between the aluminium expander plug and the carbon fork tube.

With regards to weight, this thin layer of fibre glass adds less than 10 grams to the weight of the fork, but the benefits to the consumer are significant when it comes to maintenance and longevity of the frame.