☕ Real Recordings vs Hauptwerk | Which Do YOU Prefer?

This is a really interesting topic to me - is there a difference between a commercial recording of an organ, and a Hauptwerk version of the same organ?

This video will start an ongoing discussion on the topic, and after I've had a good number of comments I will do a follow-up video to discuss YOURS and MY thoughts and opinions on the matter.

Please note - this is not a discussion about hearing the organ in real life, as of course that would be our ideal choice.

The organ used in this video is the Müller organ of St Bavokerk in Haarlem, and has been expertly prepared for Hauptwerk by Voxus Virtual Organs. More information may be found here:

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This video was created by Richard McVeigh for BEAUTY in SOUND. Any re-uploads of my videos will be removed from and by YouTube at my request. Many hours of work and thought goes into the videos on BEAUTY in SOUND, and I would ask that you respect this and not reuse my own content.

[beautyinsound]

To clarify - this is a comparison of a recording of an organ (eg John Scott Whiteley's wonderful recording at Haarlem as noted in the video) and a recording of the same organ through Hauptwerk (eg me playing the same music on my console at home using Voxus Virtual Organ's Haarlem sample). We all agree that hearing the organ in real life is unbeatable, so comments about hearing and experiencing the organ in real life will not be counted, as I said in the video! 👍

[adriaanvanoost]

Hi, Richard. In all respect, the experience of visiting concerts is for me the way to listen to organ music. The church/cathedral, the temperature inside..., the smell, etc. are the missing parts in Hauptwerk. But be very proud with your beautyfull Viscount organ, it sounds amazing. Your the owner of TWO very famous Dutch organs!! That makes me sometimes jealous... For me it doesn't matter, listening a CD or listening Hauptwerk. Succes with your YT canal! Greetings from the nNetherlands

[richardhedderly]

Richard, this topic has come up before. I'll give you some background.
I'm an audio engineer / IT bod and in discussion with an audio programmer was the discussion of how we could get a digital reproduction as close to how sitting in church would be.
What came out and still comes out is how accurate you want to be and at what level you're satisfied with that accuracy.
As we know, VPO sample sets are effectively "recorded into stone". The mic positions are fixed to taste to give as close a rendition of the sound in place.
Yes, each pipe is recorded but given the physical building and the way the resonances interact with each other, you'll never get that sound with any VPO because they are all single pipe recordings played together.
You could take a dry set and put it in a convolution reverb of the church / hall the organ is in, but again that convolution reverb sweep was done from a static set of mics in one position.
If you're listening to a stereo reproduction on CD with quality speakers, that may be enough to immerse you to that satisfaction level.
Surround sample sets give you more depth but it's still not as true as it can be.
If you take OrganTeq with it's modelling, it sounds cold to me. The sound is in front of you, like a piano. Even with the reverb they provide it just sounds like it is further away. It certainly doesn't sound immersive.
Which brings me back to the programmer and I's thoughts.
Building modelling.
The only way you're going to get as close a sound to the real thing with the interaction between notes, delays etc is to model the whole setup.
That entails modelling the building as surfaces, modelling the pipes in the chambers, placing the chambers where they actually are in the building AND having dynamic listening position placement.
Depending on the listening mode using how many audio channels are available, you'd get a much more immersive sound.
Picture this.
You've got a playback of a piece going. Using the mouse, you can move the hearing position around church / hall to find the most satisfying place for you. If you move the listening position directly next to the swell chamber then you'll hear those pipes as if you were that far away, much less reverb. If you move the position halfway down the nave, you'll get a much more reflected sound.
All the notes are interacting with each other and the surfaces in the building.
The bonus of modelling is much less RAM required for samples as it is all done computationally, however you would need an i7 quad core and above to deal with the amount of calculations.
The tricky thing is pipe modelling in that when you record each pipe for a VPO sample set, its output is there in the recording. Whilst you can model pipes like the Cavaillé-Coll style of OrganTeq, does this sound like Saint Sernin?
You could measure each part of the pipes to get the most accurate measurements but which churches would allow you to do that, plus it would take a lot longer than recording each pipe.

[lepicolea]

I listen to Gert van Hoef quite a bit, recordings made in Dutch churches using microphones and in his home using the electronic output from his virtual organ using Hauptwerk. Both are coming via Youtube so they have the same limitation on sound quality. I consistently prefer his playing in the churches and it's subtle, but the home recordings feel a bit flat. It may be that playing on a pipe organ has an influence on his playing. The visual setting is also different. On the one hand I like the intimacy of his home, but on the other I like watching the registration changes at the church and the unique design of each organ console. Regardless of the venue, the visual accompaniment is important to me. In both types of venue I like it that he always has a camera pointing at the pedals, and many others comment on that aspect of his videos.

[philipdrew]

I would say there is no significant difference in sound betwenn a good recording coming out of my sound system and your wonderful Hauptwerk instrument coming out of my sound system. I think the 'frisson' of live performance gives that an extra edge of enjoyment. I have philosophcal problems with the ethics of sampling someone elses work etc as Hauptwerk does but you, Richard, are honest about what you are playing and how it is achieved. during lockdown i have come to appreciate the digital world much more! i am so glad I have a Viscount organ on which to practise. Without it, I would have gone mad!!

[ruudbijvank]

Hi Richard, First of all, your channel is interesting. And this question too. First of all, I have my computer connected to a DAC and the DAC to my (serious) stereo set. On the speakers I could only hear a slight difference in volume, or maybe a hind of a different microphone position (The CR Recording is probably done differently than the Hauptwerk recording). Same as if you would listen on different positions in the church. So a big, modern organ with a steady wind supply, I could see your point that although there might be a slight difference, that could be neglectable from a listeners point of view.
As a player there are 2 intertwined elements that cannot be replicated by Hauptwerk and that is the mechanics from the keyboards to the valves. Again, if you compare a big modern organ with electrical wiring (or pneumatic), there is no difference. But especially on older, or authentic organs, the way you press the keys do influence the sound of the pipes. Not so much pressing in, but letting go makes a subtle difference. If combined with a dynamic wind supply, it could mean that the way you travel the keys, influence the wind supply to the valves. Even more so, the cadence of the music could bring the bellows in a certain rhythm was definitely brings a difference to the sound. The latter can never be replicated by Hauptwerk.

But in the end, as an opportunity to study at home, rather than sitting all night in a dark, cold church it pretty attractive too :-) So I believe a very, very decent alternative but not the real thing.

[thomash]

Very interesting... I would imagine that being in the actual cathedral would bring the maximum over-all experience, visual combined with auditory. (The actual sound / auditory experience would vary depending on where you were sitting in the cathedral.).

I “believe” that the Hauptwerk will produce a better sound reproduction (for listening) because of the attention to capturing each individual pipe in every rank.

One of my dreams is to eventually have a Hauptwerk in my home. I’m new to the pipe organ at church... but to be able to hear and “play” the great organs of the world seems very exciting!
Thanks again.

[andrewstrathdee]

It seems to me that there are a whole range of factors which come into play:
Firstly for the recording of the instrument and its use in a piece of music for a recording
1. The quality and condition of the organ;
2. The ability of the organist and the quality of their performance, ranging from registration to interpretation of the work;.
3. The ambience of the building in which the organ is situated
4. The acoustic qualities of the building;
5. The quality and skill of the recording engineer and of his/her equipment;
6. The quality of the recording medium being used be it vinyl or CD;
7. The quality of the output media being used by the listener and the acoustic qualities of the environment in which it is being played. One only has to look at the range of Sound reproduction systems to see how, in my view, this will be the bottleneck through which everything the listener hears must be passed and it will be different to actually being there!
Secondly for the Virtual organ, some of these factors will be the same, but not necessarily in the same order:
No 1 will apply as will 4 and 5. 6 will depend on the medium being used in the virtual organ the conversion of the recorded pipes into software. At this point no 2 appears – the ability of the organist and the quality of their performance on the virtual instrument and the whole experience of the listener will be dominated by the output medium in 7.
So the one which is different for everything is no 3, the ambience of the building and being present for a live recital, will be difficult to recreate on either a recording for a CD or for the background for the recording of the pipes for a virtual organ.

[englishfuguefan]

In response to your request for comments:
I think there could three perspectives on this: the organist's, the listener's and the worshipper's:
Any decent "pipe" organ is a combination of craftsmanship, and engineering, and as such it is a physical object which is experienced through all the senses. However magnificent the sound capture technology is, it cannot replicate the smell of the console or building, the feel of the keys, or the stiffness, or otherwise, of the action. So for the organist, however magnificent the sound, the experience will always be different if playing on a digital console. I would guess that however wonderful it is to play these great organs in your dining room, it would never supersede or equal being there. On the other hand it must be wonderful to have these sounds at your finger tips to play without having to spend vast amounts of time and money on travel. and it probably saves on the carbon footprint as well!

For the listener it is different. The touch and feel of the console does not directly affect the sound you here, but the acoustic does, and I am not sure how realistic acoustic effects are when they are mixed with the other sounds and acoustic effects in the room where you are listening. Having said that a glorious sound is a glorious sound, and I am very grateful to hear it however and whenever. One important point here is this. I have lots of very fine recordings of organ music, but there is something about being part of a creative experience as it is happening, even as an audience member which makes listening to someone play a digital copy of an instrument more exciting than listening to a digital recording. I suppose it depends how exactly you define "

The tricky one for me is working out whether or not the organ's primary function as a tool to enrich the liturgy, and to lead the music in worship of God, is in anyway transferred when it is digitally recreated. While I am certain that listening to a good recording may well elevate one's thoughts to a higher plain, I am not sure if a recording in that way can lead someone in worship, however the live playing on a digital copy of the Organ can indeed lead people in the worship of God, even though the building, colours, and context may be very different from the original home of the organ.

Technology has given us the opportunity to use these magnificent instruments in a way that they were never intended to be used by those who originally built or commissioned them, but these new ways means that more people can appreciate the beauty of the instruments and the music that is played on them, and that cannot be anything other than a good thing.

[XY_Dude]

You have three recording options to compare with. Vinyl, CD, and YouTube. I would prefer the music in that order. If you are talking about Hauptwerk sound directly from a PC, then THAT wins (on a very high-end pc and sound system, that is, with all the maximum realism settings on).

[tensorprodukt]

I know it is a bit off topic but for me I think there is no better immersion into the music other than playing it by oneself. A feeling that even a 12000€ headphone can't simulate. That is why I am building my own Midi Organ :-D .. Great channel by the way !!

[leeclinkscales]

I am happy with either. I find it difficult to tell the difference. I definitely prefer Hauptwerk over synthesizing instruments.
It is conceivable that the sampling picks up any sounds of a mechanical action instrument multiple times, while in live performance this is produced only once. A Barker lever or other assist mechanism might be more problematic, but this could be minimized with microphone placement.
One could argue that a performance on Hauptwerk could give the performer better feedback, because they are getting ideal placement, where the actual instrument often prevents the performer from hearing what the audience hears.

[nrcombe]

Dear Richard

I hope my response to your challenge isn't too late. I have been giving it a lot of thought.

In one way your question is like the discussion when vinyl/analogue recordings were replaced by CD/digital recordings. Many years ago I somewhat bought into the analogue snobbery and the claims about different recordings. A claim of immediacy and "presence" was made for companies such as Nimbus. I was never wealthy enough to pursue all of that though a good friend still extols the virtue of analogue over digital.

I think we can all accept that a live performance has subtle dimensions that for good or ill mark out the liveness (and that's notwithstanding rattly casework and noisy heating systems and a 50hz hum on the sound system}. But as soon as we are comparing a "live" recording of church organ with a digital set Hauptwerk recording I find myself wanting to step back.

A while back I was in a piano showroom and the salesman chalenged me to tell the difference between two digital and two mechanical pianos. I couldn't and that may well be because my hearing is not sensitive enough and my listening is not attentive/educated enough or it may be that there is no perceptible difference.

I've reached an age, and live in a remote place where opportunities to hear top notch organ recitals are few and far between. What people like you have done for me is put this music on my desk. It is the music that matters. A year or two ago I stopped worrying and started enjoying the music again. I do not think about the line of transmisssion from pipe to my ears.

A century ago a recording of a recital would be hardly camparable with the original by modern standards. Therefore it is appropriate for us to develop technology. But it's the music that matters and it's for the music that I thank you, Richard. Keep it coming because it's a great blessing and I am grateful for it.

Neil Combe

[caldreise]

I just came across this video and I see its already 2 years since it was introduced. Here’s my thoughts.
I had the opportunity to work for a organ builder/ tuner in Ontario Canada for about 6 years. I was just out of high school and and this organ company was looking for a key holder for the tuners. So since I had been studying organ for several years I decided to take up the opportunity. I travelled throughout Canada and even into the USA a few times and have played and heard many fabulous instruments during that time. Now some 30 years later I have the opportunity using Hauptwerk software to travel, in a virtual atmosphere, around the world and pick up where I left off some 30 years ago. And what a treat it is for me as an organist to be able to do this using this technology.
Some day, and through much expense one will be able to reproduce the authentic sound of a particular organ and how it reverbs throughout the building. But for now the quality I am hearing through my audio system is pretty real. I’m sure the more one spends on a good quality sound system will bring us even closer to the cathedral type sound we would all appreciate but for now I’m content with the sound I am getting at a reasonable cost.

[danw]

I've found on Hauptwerk that if you get the 'dry' sample sets (recorded in the pipe chambers with no additional reverb), you can route the audio through your favorite reverb software and adjust ambience and reverb length to accurately reproduce any 'room' size. I have about a dozen different sample sets to play with, and I can customize them however I like to suit the original space that they would speak into. I've had people in my home remark that they thought I had pipes hidden under the floor somewhere!😁 I run Hauptwerk on a later model MacBook Pro, which has a digital line out that I connect to a high power Onkyo TX-SR674 stereo system with speakers (and powered woofers) located strategically all over my house. The overall effect is pretty amazing, and it's a good thing I don't have any neighbors really close because I can literally shake the windows in the place with some of the 16 & 32 foot stops.🤣 As far as a comparison to the actual counterpart to my sample sets, I couldn't really say too much since I've never heard most of the original organs. One thing I *CAN* say, is the Hauptwerk Virtual Organ(s) will *never* be out of tune (unless you intentionally detune a few pipes for more 'realism').😉🎵🎶🎵👍

[edcew]

I think that the speakers will make a huge difference! I have a pair of MartinLogan electrostatics that are so clear that, on a good recording, I can place individual voices in a chorus. Those, I think, would be exemplary listening to an organ recording. On the other hand, with Hauptwerk, I think that lesser quality speakers could work as the room acoustics would add complexity to the sound. My guess is that although the two would be technically different, the sensations would be so close as to be almost indistinguishable... almost. And I don't know what the super high quality speakers would do to Hauptwerk -- it's conceivable that they might not work was well as just plain old, really good speakers, depending on where the speakers were placed, where the listener was, how the room acoustics interact with the Hauptwerk sound, etc. BTW, our church uses Hauptwerk, with individual pipes voiced to the room.

[mervynpayne]

I have only just come across this You Tube discussion. Surely the answer is that it depends on the quality of the sound reproduction equipment in both the instrument, AND the hi-fi system through which the CD is played. If they are both equally good, there should be little or no difference.

[louisglen]

I had an earlier version of the Sonus Paradisi Doesburg sample set, and Jiri has created effects that make it sound even more realistic. I liked the first version, but the upgraded version is even more realistic. He explains what he did to the sample set on his website. I prefer listening to a sample set than a commercial recording of said organ.

[alexanderweibel-valls]

The main difference is that in real recording the harmonics of multiple notes/voices being played in reverb as it fills the space is captured. The modern digitalization beautifully captures the timbre and reverb of each "individual" note (pipe) but not the harmonics of the combination.

[SergioRodriguez-bimd]

Please, what's the name of the song from 4:22?