Marcion and Canonical Paul | Dr. Markus Vinzent

@Patristica

In this livestream, Professor Markus Vinzent returns to History Valley to further discuss Marcion's Paul to compare and contrast Marcion's edition of Paul's Epistles to the canonical Pauline Epistles.

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(c) 2024, by speakers, distributed under a CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 international license.

𝕏Twitter: @Jacob56723278

[kuettler]

1:22 Introduction to Marcion's Paul
18:07 Response to Prof Paula Fredriksen
26:44 Does Marcion's Paul portrait Jesus as a Davidic figure?
27:04 How does Marcion's Paul portrait Jesus?
35:27 How does Marcion's Paul describe James the Lord's brother? Does Marcion's Paul identify James?
38:26 Was James Jesus brother?
43:41 How does Marcion's Paul understand Jesus death and resurrection?
47:44 Who does Paul think had Jesus killed in the Marcionite edition?
48:46 Does Marcion's Paul identify who had Jesus executed?
52:17 Did Paul write Marcion's Paulean epistles?

[RghHgr]

There is certainly something huge in the making, to be talked about for coming generations of scholars. Thank you for this channel!

[MrOliver]

I love the topic with Marcion and Dr. Vinzent. I cant wait for the new book. I will buy it straight away in German.

[robertosharpe]

I love your show....and your questions are excellent. Thanks to your brilliant guests. Respect

[nrudy]

Really interesting about the sources that Marcion seemed to be drawing on. The order of the letters evidence is very interesting.

[TheAfricanDia-Stoic]

I didn’t even know you had an YouTube until today. Love your work!

[Dybbouk]

Early christian writings is certainly a complicated subject. But thanks to Vinzent we have a structure to make sense of it

[AaronGardner]

Where does one find Marcion’s versions of the Pauline epistles?

[TheologyAsResistance]

I like how Jacob completely rephrased the question about who killed Jesus. I'm glad he didn't let the question go! 😄

[Mr._Warlight]

Wonderful analysis by Dr. Markus Vincent here.
Imo, the Pauline epistles were written by different church leaders in different cities and later edited and then attributed to Paul.
Personally, I believe that the Marcionite epistles also suggest that Paul is a fictional character used as a Christian folk hero to connect the various different standards in the original epistles by placing them under the same hand.

[dennythedavinchi]

I think the problem is not Marcion edited but Marcion was the true writer of the epistles. But Paul's Epistle is not fully marcion cause there were many edited forgeries occured in the epistles for later centuries.

[KevinHoganPsyD]

Fantastic experience here today. So important for people interested in the creation of the New Testament. A few notes that might be of interest... Dr. Bull in the chat notes that Roman Catholic is not an ideal phrase in defining (my words now) much of anything in this period of 50 - 150 as there was no Roman Catholic. There was Rome. There were hundreds of religious sects and dozens of Judaic and "Christian" sects which were all very different from each other. There was no "church" per se. There were factions. Also in the chat, a note that Christianity doesn't start until post 70. I used to believe that until it is crystal clear in Roman history that Christ (I didn't say Jesus of Nazareth) and Christ followers in 49 AD was causing trouble in Rome. (Claudius) People who were Jewish and people who were "Christian" were expelled from Rome in this period. There is no data anywhere that shows a Christian in Judea or Galilee in the first two centuries CE. Alexandria? Maybe. So as people you could identify with a term (like caucasion or tall people or smart people) they certainly did have words like Christian or Christ Followers. But there were no church buildings, there were no synagogue buildings. There was no agreed upon texts. By say, 150 there was still no building to go visit in Rome or Alexandria or Sinope or anywhere else. There was no printing press of a "canon". As far as Marcion himself, my sense is that your researchers here know as we all do that Marcion was a very real person where Matthew, Mark and Luke were not. Paul? It probably doesn't matter. The name could be placeholder like Luke or it was a guy who wrote a couple of letters. Personally I doubt that the traditions of a guy named Paul being first century...the argument is very, weak unless "Paul" is made up from Saul in Josephus. There might have been a human Paul after Josephus. Certainly Josephus is the first reference to Saul, not the "Book of Acts" which relies on Josephus. Whether this guy Saul, who Josephus writes of, morphs into Paul in story form is something I suspect, though no one "legitimate letters of Paul" is a difficult phrase to wrestle with as the ear hears that they are "real" and written by Paul, the guy who killed Jews in Judea and Galilee in the pre 70 period... but I suspect it is more what is earliest and not what was inspired by God, or real letters that were sent out to real people in the pre 70 period. Ultimately Marcion was a real guy who might have written some of what he had copied and sent out to a few groups in his day (130's ish). Did he write the letters attributed to Paul? Dr. Vinzent addresses that at the end of the video. We've all learned a great deal from these folks. Jacob has done a great job of putting forth a completely misunderstood body of research that VBB are doing and it's all about a misunderstood man and his new testament, Marcion. Marcion wasn't a good guy or a bad guy, but unlike Paul, we KNOW that Marcion was real, which doesn't make his work right or wrong (or even what precisely what "his work" was. I've learned a lot in the chat as I watch people often thinking out loud and it's really helpful in raising important questions and sometimes answers. Absolutely brilliant experience here today. Thanks Jacob

[erlinggaratun]

I think the 'redactors' of the canonical letters probably sat down with a copy of Josephus and 'fixed' things..

[tonejack]

I believe you have to find the truth, it’s rarely given to you. When Searching for the truth I found Marcion. First Christians before the council of Nicaea.

[James-lljb]

I think this old saw has been sufficiently beaten down in the past five years, hasn't it?

[johnnehrich]

According to Matthew Britt and Jaaron Wingo ("Christ Before Jesus"), using the latest science of stylometrics, none of the letters (if I am reading this right) were written by the same author, and most if not all, multiple authors, and appear to have been written in the second century, not the first.

[joevanlandingham]

Christ meaning "The Annointed/Chosen One" for the Jewish God Yahweh.. (Host of the Physical Realm) Was Saul/Paul.. He would have been the one chosen by Yahweh to bring all of the world under the rule of Yahweh

Jesus was christ/annointed/chosen by an entity outside of the physical real.

[joeyking]

One of the main claims by historicists is that James was Jesus's brother according to Paul. If I understand correctly, the canonical text actually says Paul saw the "brother of the Lord" not "brother of Jesus." That is the first "stretch" of the textual evidence. If what Dr. Vinzent says is true, that the Marcionite Pauline letter does not make that claim, that pretty much takes the final wind out of the sail for the "last best" evidence for the historicity of Jesus in my view. I can't wait to hear more. I don't know where historicists can take it from here.