Frosthaven: Did The World's Biggest Game Just Get Bigger?

Can the world's biggest game get bigger AND better? How much blue cardboard is too much blue? What's the best way to climb a slippery mountain? Find the answers to some of these questions in today's hot hot bit of internet media.

0:00 Gosh Frosthaven is big, but then so is this video
0:23 Disclaimers (no major spoilers, but b-roll will show some early-game things)
1:51 Gloomhaven Was Great
2:43 Gameplay
5:52 Organisers
6:23 What's in the box?!
8:13 Helper Apps
11:13 Backwards Compatible
11:30 Is Frosthaven good?
12:19 The Manual
14:10 Sequels are complicated
17:39 Pudding -- What's new in Frosthaven?
25:13 Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion Review
27:55 Frosthaven Review
39:58 The "Insert" Insert
45:12 Frosthaven Conclusions - Is this for you?

~FOLLOW US AROUND, WHY DON'T YOU~

[HenryRSeymour]

The "Insert" Insert is one of my favorite things SUSD has ever done, as an absolutely incredible homage to the amazing work of Tim Rogers at Action Button.

[davetalbert]

"Let's cheat!" I laughed out loud, both at the great comedy of the bit, and because we have TOTALLY done that.

[ScovaNotia]

I laughed so hard as Matt is laboriously organising/unpacking/punching Frosthaven. As he is doing so, he goes on to say "...and at the bottom of the box, you'll find a SECOND copy of Frosthaven." Oh the wonderful madness of our hobby! Tom's interstitial bonus content near the end of the video is great. "The Frosthaven insert was my Game of the Year (2022)". Nuff said, I'll be ordering the insert yesterday. This was almost 48 minutes of pure entertainment! Thank you, SU&SD, for all that you do.

[kevinanderson]

Tom's segment on the insert... pure genius. Made watching through to the end entirely worth it. Great work, I assumed this would have to be a long video but was a bit flabbergasted when I saw the full run time. Despite that, I don't think it felt overly repetitive. Well done!

[cwjdog]

Tom randomly appearing to talk about JOTL was very welcome and appreciated honestly. In America I've seen it as low as $20, which is literally ten times cheaper than Frosthaven. Wild.

[MrSomebunny]

MATT’S BACK!! Welcome back, Matt! You were SO MISSED!

[themultifish]

I know it's because he was dealing with moving and logistic nightmares, but I like to think that the reason we've been so long without a Matt-headlined review is because he was trapped by this monolith of a game and unable to do anything but prepare for however many months. Amazing work.

[leshrac]

So, my Gloomhaven group moved away (the organizer anyway) and I sold my copy of Gloomhaven since it was mostly untouched (again, played my friend’s copy) and started a new group for Frosthaven with people who had no experience with Gloomhaven and not even necessarily a ton of gaming experience and while we’ve only played a few times (first level up next session!) so far it’s been pretty good and everyone seems to be enjoying it! Maybe that will change and it’ll get to be too complex but just thought I’d share that so far the new players are actually doing fine and enjoying it as well.

[natemace]

Our group is in the category you mentioned at the end of people who have completely finished Gloomhaven et al and wanted more more more. We are LOVING it. It truly is just what we wanted. So while I disagree with a lot of your criticisms, that is only because you are so right that its only really meant to be for those that have finished the marathon and want to go out for a run the next day. It isnt for everyone, but if you play JOTL and Gloomhaven and want more, then it is for you!

[sandra_basel]

The Insert Insert is pure genious! Also thank you for promoting Jaws of the Lion, it sits here, waiting to be played as it is the only one of these "havenly" games that I have any realistic chance of playing.
Thanks to both of you for these deep thoughts.

[KArchine]

5:03 yeee gods, admitting the co-op "we've been playing for 2 hours and I'm not playing this scenario again. Fine let's cheat". Excellent bit of honesty 👌

[jur]

What an amazing and absurdly entertaining review!
And o dear, the insert insert is just too good! Astoundingly fantastically written. You folks truly are great artists and I sincerely hope you are proud and get as much joy from making this as you give back to us. You absolute legends!

[linforcer]

Yeah, this is for me. My group have played all of Gloomhaven, all of Forgotten Circles, we've played all of Jaws of the Lion, we've strung all of the community campaigns together into a 40 scenario campaign and we are currently working our way through the crimson scales, for which we have trail of ashes as well. We can't get enough

[pianoman]

As someone who has played Gloomhaven, Forgotten Circles and now started Frosthaven, JOTL is absolutely my favourite of the lot. I hope they do make the JOTL style campaign books for Gloomhaven and Frosthaven that Isaac mentioned during the Frosthaven campaign

[SamA-ghkq]

On the part of Pudding, I must say it's been an absolute favorite of my group. We look forward each time we return to the town to building more stuff, crafting items, and brewing potions. For us it's byfar the best part of the game that's new from GH.

[jasperpott]

Can we get a standing ovation for this? Thanks Matt for this ramble, and thanks Tom for the brilliant "insert" insert

[voltcorp]

lol "the 'insert' insert" is so tim-rogers-y, love it

[Battleturtleful]

I see where Matt is coming from, and I know that this is definitely an extreme game, but I am in a weird position where I hard disagree with nearly every one of his complaints (although some where spot on). I played Gloomhaven with a group of friends and we finished it about 4 years ago, it took us playing once a weekend at my friend's place for about a year and a half. I loved it, and it became the best 200 bucks I ever spent on a game (up to that point). I kickstarted Frosthaven and waited through covid for my 41 pound box to arrive. I now play frosthaven with a different group of friends, they are both new to the haven games. From my perspective, the book was 100 times better than any rule book I ever read, gloomhaven took me 8 hours to read through and understand the first time, I was done the frosthaven book in 2 hours because of the "patch notes" style of writing. I think the mistake was teaching the rules from the book which it really isn't designed for, the easiest way to teach it is exactly what Matt did in the opening of the video, you play two cards, top of one and bottom of the other, everything else will makes sense after a single play through to any new player (and you can slowly teach them the other parts that they can do to take some of the admin off of your shoulders, like the elemental chart, help with set up, etc.)

I also planned to never clean up frosthaven until it was finished, I am blessed to have a spot that I can set it up and leave it set up for our next session, which was my biggest complaint of gloomhaven and why I don't break it out any more, its just too much to set up. Frosthaven has this issue too (there is no real way around it if you want to keep the same scale), but the organizers do help with that. Now when my friends come over to play, its like we are actually entering the city of Frosthaven, the upgrades feel real and all of the town developments so far have felt interesting. We aren't playing the game "to get through it" or "to unlock things as quickly as possible", we are just having an adventure stumbling through the various mechanics.

I have never used any of the "time saver" apps, to me the grandness of the admin lines up with the grandness of the game. If I wanted a simpler game I would play a simpler game, for me the grand design of the 41 pounds is what I paid for. Gloomhaven's map board was always extra fluff, adding nothing that couldn't be replaced by a simple list of numbers for which mission you could play and what achievements you have, but Frosthaven's map I find myself looking at more and more, considering how we should upgrade the town and appreciating the art.

The complexity of the starting classes is definitely higher in Frosthaven, and for those who don't know, Matt's character was ranked at the highest level of complexity according to the rulebook, so complaining that it is complex feels to me like yelling at an apple for being an apple. I also picked a very complex character and I found myself quickly (and surprisingly) overwhelmed at first (and for about 8 missions afterwards) in how to play them. I have figured them out for the most part now, but I can still see they will change as further levels are unlocked.

I haven't finished the game yet (we haven't even hit first winter), but I am in no rush to do so. This is a long-form game that feels the best when you take your time through it, and while I know not everyone has the time to commit to a game like this, I find it very enjoyable. If you want something you can fully teach/learn/play quickly, its not the game for you, but thats kind of the point of it. Just the size of the box should tell you that this game is a commitment.

No hate though, as I am sure many other people feel the same way Matt does, I may really love this game, but I also understand where he is coming from.

[Arthas]

Petition for Matt/SUSD to release a full read through of both Gloomhaven and Frosthaven. I don't even have copies of those games - I just think it would be hilarious and fun :D

[cptroot]

Tom's segment at the end (The "Insert" insert) was one of the top segments of all SU&SD.