Typology and Doctrine: A Careful Response to Gavin Ortlund and Others

00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:38 - Thank you, Jimmy
00:02:10 - Contents
00:04:11 - Context
00:05:59 - Aquinas - Allegory can't establish doctrine
00:10:33 - Contemporary Scholarship - Typology isn't allegory
00:17:05 - Typology Explained
00:26:30 - "A type is just a shadow"
00:29:04 - 4 Defenses of Typology establishing Doctrine
00:33:03 - Is typology posterior to doctrine?
00:37:43 - “Cameron Bertuzzi's Conversion to Rome: Protestant Response”
01:08:11 - “Response to Jimmy Akin on Typology”
01:31:10 - The Nature of my Argument
01:33:06 - Conclusions

Suan Sonna is a Baptist convert to Catholicism who is dedicated to curating the best Catholic intellectual content on philosophy, politics, and theology. He is also passionate about engaging people outside of the Catholic tradition on issues relevant to the Church.

[shlamallama]

As a Catholic, I really like Suan and Dr. Ortlund. They are charitable people and if this argument continues between them there's bound to be misunderstandings about the way the other argues and how the other treats one's own arguments. I think it would be best for all parties involved to be quick to forgive when the one has not appropriately engaged the other. That way we can focus on the arguments and not be distracted by the way people making these arguments feel towards each other. Nothing would make me happier than to see Ortlund and Suan remain on good speaking terms throughout this debate. Praying for all parties involved, especially for Dr. Ortlund because I am not sure how on earth he balances engaging Catholics and Orthodox, being a *pastor* and a family man.

[andrewdalton]

I appreciate that you quoted Gavin verbatim and responded so thoroughly. Hopefully, he’ll reciprocate in the future.

[benjaminshirley]

All of them have very concise and well thought-out arguments... It's hard to know who may be correct. It sure would be nice if we had a temporal authority on which we can look to as a guide in pointing us to orthodoxy....

[ravesp]

Phenomenal. The “YouTube time stamp” version of the Summa. Steel man respond repeat. 21st century systematic theology and apologetics right here. God bless you and your fervor.

[Doug]

One can find intellectual and very persuasive arguments for any religion as well as atheism in today's world. Each group will have its own intellectual powerhouses to defend their position this is something I have found out to be during my journey. However, one thing strikes me as very clear, and despite all the attacks against the Catholic Church and the Papacy (even internal attacks), the Papacy is still there and very much intact.

Protestants have been around for 500 years and while they have taken millions of catholics and split among themselves, the Papacy still there. Any time the Pope speaks, you have everyone listening to him. They don't necessarily agree with him, but they listen. World leaders go to meet the Pope, not the Bible or Pastor Bob from 123 Bible Church.

Many of this critics outside of the Church have no authority and for some reason, they think that their subjective interpretation is binding on anyone. Who cares what Gavin or Pope James White think?

History shows us that the Papacy has had a strong influence in the development of western civilization, there has been bad popes, but the institution still there. Not everyone believes in Jesus, but that does not mean he did not exist or he is not God.

If the enemies of the Church don't like the response and reasons we give them, then it's their problem. We do not need their agreement for us to settle any dispute.

[KyleWhittington]

This must be what it's like to watch titans clash.

[Mkvine]

Glad to see this! Much needed response. Excellent Suan.

[tbojai]

Love your pursuit of Truth, Suan. Your work is always enjoyable to follow, and extremely convincing. Congrats on 10k followers!

[SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

Thank you for the necessary clarification. I've always thought of typology as pieces of evidence used in interpretation and contributed towards theology. Not doctrine on its own but pieces of a jigsaw puzzle which can be used when formulating doctrine.

[JH_Phillips]

Well done, Suan! Very clear and well articulated. I find the argument very convincing, and I personally don’t see any issue with calling it typological.

I can see how typology and allegory can be used inappropriately, but I don’t think we should be throwing the baby out with the bath water. I’ve found a ton of beauty and enlightenment from the allegory used by the church fathers.

[mitchellsnider]

Great work Suan! Love the video. You're always very charitable and thorough. Praying for you and the team.

[greenchristendom]

I would say one could argue for the unity of a typological and exegetical argument on the basis that in the literal meaning of the text Jesus is deliberately employing the Eliakim typology and setting up in his kingdom (with more spiritual weight and power of course) essentially the same office as in David's.

[Adam-ueig]

Dr. Ortlund has posted a new response.

[australopithecusafarensis]

This was FIRE, Suan. Thanks for your contributions to the Church.

[duedilligence]

Great work, Suan! We appreciate your thorough, charitable responses and articulate arguments.

[CapturingChristianity]

It's unfortunate that Gavin has decided not to engage your actual arguments, Suan. I know that can be frustrating.

[Quantum]

Suan, Thanks. Around the 1 hour mark you said that if the pope declared a dogma ex cathedra without consulting his brother bishops that this would be a kind of mortal sin. This is very interesting. Can you or anyone offer a source for this claim? Thanks!

[shepherdson]

Thank you for your extensive works and research. It Gives us Catholics a better picture of the fullness of the faith and hopefully will enlighten those who are in journey. God bless!

[rhwinner]

Way above my head, but that's a good thing! 😃

[tonywallens]

An hour in and so far this is excellent and thorough.