Is Trump's Trade War on China Good for America? A Soho Forum Debate

Stephen Moore and Gene Epstein debate whether or not President Trump's Chinese trade policy deserves broad public support.

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"President Trump's trade-related initiatives against China deserve broad public support."

That was the resolution of a public debate hosted by the Soho Forum in New York City on February 4, 2020. It featured Stephen Moore of the Heritage Foundation and Gene Epstein of the Soho Forum. Comedian Dave Smith moderated.

It was an Oxford-style debate, in which the audience votes on the resolution at the beginning and end of the event; the side that gains the most ground is victorious. Moore prevailed by convincing 21.51 percent of audience members to change their minds. Epstein convinced 13.98 percent.

Arguing for the affirmative was Stephen Moore, distinguished visiting fellow for the Project for Economic Growth at the Heritage Foundation. Moore is also a senior economic contributor for FreedomWorks and the founder of the Club for Growth.

Gene Epstein argued for the negative. Epstein, former economics editor of Barron's, is co-founder and director of the Soho Forum.

The Soho Forum, which is sponsored by the Reason Foundation, is a monthly debate series at the SubCulture Theater in Manhattan's East Village.

Produced by John Osterhoudt.
Photo: Brett Raney

[wolflarson]

Gene's condescending tone towards Steve during this debate was a real turn off. I feel like he had a good chance of winning but only convinced those who were predisposed towards his position. Next time ditch the snarky/patronizing attitude and you might win with audiences.

[antialiased]

Gene was intolerable in this "debate". I kept thinking I was listening to a toddler throwing a tantrum.

[Caseylawton]

You guys should do a YouTube poll after a video posts to see how the internet viewers vote on the proposition

[noblephoenix]

It's an easy argument to make. Free trade is good for economies and when goods don't cross borders, armies will. If you want peace and prosperity, you want free trade.

[jeffersonianideal]

With Dave Smith as the moderator the audience is assured of no funny business.

[Doc-Holliday]

Great point about the WTO. I was listening to that dude thinking "He doesn't agree with economic actions taken by the US on behalf of the US because thats an overstep of government. but he'd gladly hand the situation over to an international beaurocracy? especially one that isn't guarunteed to favor the US?" I'm the other dude pointed that out

[watchmanstate]

I feel like there was a missing argument here. The reason why tariffs and pushing trade out of China even if it's to another nation like Japan, Korea, or India would be preferable is a good thing is complicated but hear me out.

The argument:

Okay accepting that trade is essentially 2 people saying "you have something I want, here is what ill give you in return." and how is anyone getting in the middle of that a good thing? This is the essence of the "free trade is liberty" argument where free trade should be recognized as a right. Well even if it were recognized as a right the agreement is still contingent upon the understanding that both parties are being honest. That the offering is made with the understanding that the goods are legitimately obtained. Buying stolen goods would still be a rights violation of the original owner. The sale does not make the ownership of those goods just. Now the buyer, if they didn't know, is not to blame, but they still may not claim ownership of these goods once it is made known and would instead have to relinquish them to their owner and seek restitution from the salesman. Understanding this, we need to scale the concept larger. China is a human rights violating entity. Their goods are cheaper not because they are more efficient, not because they have access to resources we do not, not because they have more capacity to produce than we do but because they violate the rights of their citizens to produce those goods, to acquire the design's of those goods, to confiscate the land to build the factories to make those goods. Free trade with China fundamentally exports rights violations in exchange for cheap goods, and unlike the buyer in my hypothetical, we KNOW this is what is going on which makes us culpable so long as we enable them and incentivize them to continue these practices.

[CalculationConsulting]

Unwatchable. Not even close to a serious discussion of the real issues.

[jeffersonianideal]

59:33
Next SOHO forum debate:
Is Dave Smith a comedian?

[jeffersonianideal]

50:19
The heated and petulant exchange is uncharacteristic of both debate participants and seemed staged.

[michaelpisciarino]

2:13 Affirmative Opening
17:35 Rejection Opening
21:59 "Economic Harm From Tariffs keeps piling up"
25:23 Myths Justifying The Trade War
1. Dumping (Is it really bad China wants to sell us their goods at cheaper prices?)
28:38
2. Compliance/Un-Compliance with Trade Deals (China is compliant, America is not as compliant)
30:25
3. Intellectual Property Theft (It's not a big deal)

34:08 Rebuttals
- America did not start this war
- So far it has worked
- A Tariff is just a tax, lets tax foreign goods more than domestic goods
+ Agreed on Dumping
- We need Patent Laws, Protection of Ideas, (China claims to be Apple, when they are not)

40:12 Rebuttal
- We are a powerful economy
- China is not poaching our intellectual property
- The Trade Deal is not going to work up, China can't ratch up
- WSJ article is right, Tariffs hurt Americans

45:28 Questions
47:58 Pride And Shame
50:40 Lol
55:44 Questions from the audience
58:17 2.5% Growth Rate (Better than Obama and/or Still Not Good Enough?)
1:00:00 Free Markets
1:03:00 Is It A Tax Cut if you Don't Cut Spending?

A Trade Deficit, bad good or neither?

1:07:08 TPP, America Is The Bully
- Were running a trade deficit
- We are engaging in trade deal abuses of the WTO

1:12:37
- China has not opened up their markets
- Americans can buy stuff from China if they want to or not

1:15:31
- Ethics (do I want to buy from a company who uses slave labor? Should I buy from a Totalitarian State)


1:17:44 Closing Statement (Steve)
1:19:27 Closing Statement (Gene)

[anandaji]

Sure Gene, we will talk free trade when the CCP adopts Libertarianism!...lol

[shan]

Why does a libertarian debate need a moderator?

[wtb]

Libertarians really need to stop trotting out "non-aggression" for every argument--it's very close to the Leftist "speech is violence" precept. The terms "war, " and "aggression" are metaphorical when used in a discussion about trade policy, not literal. A person shouldn't try to confuse the metaphorical and the literal to make a philosophical point fit where it doesn't belong.

[IntrinsicNRJ]

Can we get podcast highlight style clips? I think the reward will outweigh the input required.

[NSO]

The thumbnail looks like a freestyle battle between two really old-school guys!

[druoleary]

Gene's whole argument is that Trump is ignorant, which he didn't prove. And reading editorials about probabilities which have been proved wrong isn't convincing.

[bogiepullr]

The trade war results for America overshadow this "debate" with prosperity.

[JBJB]

My business has suffered because of tariffs. I wish I didn't have to import from a communists country, but their factories are eager to do business with small businesses with low minimum quantity orders. You can find any type of factory in China. So it's not like I can get American companies to manufacture my products. There simply isn't any. Believe me. I've searched and hired sourcing consultants. It's even difficult to find Latin American, European, other Asian countries to produce what China is capable of. I wish tariffs only applied to large corporations and businesses. They can afford to pay or pass on the tariffs. I own a small product brand and we mainly sell on Amazon, so it's a tough competitive marketplace... Just expressing my experience.

[matubalfaisal]

I wish Steve watch this video in December 2020😂😂😂😂