German Strategy for Italy 1943/44

In this video Dr. Magnus Pahl from the MHM Dresden and I talk about the German strategy and view on Italy in 1943 and 1944. How did it fit in, what options were available, what strategies were proposed by Rommel and Kesselring?

Cover design by vonKickass.

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Pahl, Magnus: Monte Cassino 1944: Der Kampf um Rom und seine Inszenierung. Verlag Ferdinand Schöningh: Paderborn, Germany, 2021.

#GermanStrategyItaly,#Italy1943,#ItalyAndGermany

[mensch]

Before someone leaves a comment, I should note that Dr. Pahl's use of 'fore play' is an exact translation of the German word "Vorspiel" (literally before the play). It's a term from classical music for a prelude or an overture (an instrumental piece that sets the mood before the singing begins). So it's entirely a good term to use to describe what set the scene for the battle of Monte Cassino . . . if the word did not have certain "adult" connotations in colloquial English that I doubt most German speakers are familiar with.

[PalleRasmussen]

Other youtubers; "Thank you for watching, remember to click the bell for notifications, like, share and subscribe, cya next time".

Bernard (very fast); "Sources are linked in the description, remember to subscribe, bye".

[bloqk]

That thumbnail illustration was most amusing of showing Hitler at a table, looking down on the table with I'd guess was a pizza, with a look of apprehension on his face that could describe his thought of: _What have I've gotten myself into?_

[davidbrennan]

“Soft underbelly” or “tough old gut”.... history decided.

[luisnunes]

Napoleon knew everything about invading Italy and said: "Italy is a boot, one enters it from the top." The history of the allied campaign seems to bear out his opinion.

[jimsackmanbusinesscoaching]

So, I guess the question is what should the allies do after Salerno? Sicily makes sense. Clear the lanes for British shipping in the Med. Up to the point of pounding their heads at Monte Casino, we have a reasonable campaign. At that point, the Italian Navy is not really an issue. The Allied air forces can suppress Axis air forces in the theatre. Seems to me there are 4 options:

1 - Do Anzio and go for Rome as actually happened.

2 - Go into the Po Valley directly.

3 - Go into Southern France similar to Operation Dragoon.

4 - Go somewhere in Greece.

The advantage of the Po Valley is the terrain should be much easier to attack and be well behind the Axis lines. This would mean that the Germans south of Rome would have to consider retreat or be cut off. The disadvantage is that the supply situation gets much worse for the Allies and being that far behind lines might lead to the beachhead being surrounded by superior forces and destroyed.

The advantage of Southern France is that you get past the Alps, which are always going to limit how fast of a path to Germany this is. If you are planning Overlord for later in 44, you will have sucked in a lot of troops that might have defended Normandy. The German troops in Italy won't be cut off so there is no need for them to retreat anytime soon. The logistical and other downsides are worse than the Po Valley.

Greece has the same problem that Italy does in general. You can't really get to Berlin fast that way. You can probably liberate lots of Greeks and link up with the Yugoslavian partisans, but that is about it.

[slartybartfarst]

Thank you. Yet again, a fascinating interview

Interesting Video.

Somehow I always thought the frontline magically ended up on the line around Mount Cassino.
But of course it makes much more sense that they planned that.
Thx for opening my eyes to this today.

And also for allowing me to be proud that I actually saw the "hidden map". Guss my glases work.

[robertmarsh]

Very interesting video and speaker. Thank you!!

[grizwoldphantasia]

I am no military expert, and discussions like this clarify a lot of things to the point that I wonder sometimes how I could have been so ignorant. Kesselring's plan to keep Allied air power as far away as possible makes a lot of sense. One puzzle I have always had about the Allied Italian campaign is, Why bother? The mountainious (you ought to trademark that word, it is better than the real one) terrain seems like the last place you'd want to pour in resources. But I guess you have to go where you can. Sometimes it all comes down to air power; I have heard that until Big Week in February 1944, the Luftwaffe was still too strong to chance a landing across the English Channel (another side question: the French call it something else. What do other countries (Spain, The Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark) call it?) and maybe the same applies to landing in southern France.

Iwo Jima was barely occupied and not at all fortified even a year before the US landed there, and could have been taken in a single day with few casualties; but it was beyond any air support. My imagination thinks it could have been held easily since the IJN by then was in no condition to invade it, and resupplied well enough due to the small size of the holding force. But the US did not know its condition, nor how much it would be fortified, nor how weak the IJN was, and so it goes.

My imagination knows more than everybody else ever, runs away with these ideas, and one of the reasons I come back here is to rein in my imagination.

[nemiw]

Dude has the craziest german accent ever.

[USAACbrat]

Did anyone Think that it was easier to start at the top of Italy instead of the bottom?

[rogersmith]

Have you done a WWII history of Dresden?

[michaelrostosky]

Mich würde ein Artikel zum Thema Generalstäbe im Vergleich interessieren und vielleicht auch die Entwicklungen in die Jetztzeit

[im]

Great video. Can't help to point out one thing though. Churchill, as far as I know, never said "the soft underbelly". In his volumes of the history of WWII, he said "underbelly", but never "soft underbelly". I don't mind being proven wrong, but as far as I know, this is just another of the way too many and long lived WWII myths.

[RodrigoFernandez-tduk]

I have always wondered why the Allies did not land immediately at Anzio, before the Germans took control of Rome. The extra distance was not an impediment to air cover, and the flat terrain made the attack easier.
Perhaps Rommel considered it impossible to defend Rome if it was directly attacked, and so he suggested establishing a line in the north.
Better coordination with Badoglio would also have been possible. If the armistice had included clearly ordering the Italian forces to entrench themselves and defend themselves from the Germans, the Germans would not have been able to subdue them and defend themselves from the Allies at the same time.

[thebigone]

You’re the best ever Bernhard!!! Your videos give me a reason to live! The best!!!

[triklettriklerbu]

I would appreciate if you could add subtitles in English. Thanks for the video anyways.

[michaeldunne]

Good piece. All very interesting, but bit of a sad bit of history. Think the Allies had to secure the Mediterranean during the war. Unfortunately for the Italians, the mainland was put through misery from September 1943 to April 1945.

And, many Italians were detained as Germans secured positions in the Balkans and the South of France that were previously occupied by Fascist Italy. On the plus side for the Allies, Tito's partisans gained strength, forcing the Germans to divert a non-trivial number of divisions to Yugoslavia.

Churchill seemed keen on the Balkans and the concept of "the Soft Underbelly of Europe, " but then was no sot keen on the operation that really did hit a soft underbelly, Operation Dragoon and the invasion of Southern France on August 15, which led to major German formations evacuating large parts of France, and the securing of Marseilles as a major port.

[MrPepesmith]

I noticed paratrooper symbol in the background didn't have the swastika on it